Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

לֹא תִלְבַּשׁ שַׁעַטְנֵז צֶמֶר וּפִשְׁתִּים יַחְדָּו

As you can see the words for wool and linen come after Shatnez. We have good
grammatical basis, therefore, for analysing this as a construct relationship
i.e. a mix of wool and linen. Hope this helps.

Just in case you don't read Hebrew I've singled out the three words you need
to look at:

שַׁעַטְנֵז צֶמֶר וּפִשְׁתִּים

James Christian

2010/2/15 James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>

> Hi,
>
> the torah also talks about heart circumcision if I am not mistaken.
>
> I think the translation 'you should not wear a mix of wool and linen' is
> the favoured interpretation.
>
> James Christian
>
> 2010/2/14 Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>
>
>  James,
>> I found the end of your reply to be inappropriate.
>> For one, not everyone on this board is a Christian - so for Jews this is
>> subject has relevance.
>> For two, in Christianity there are varying beliefs in regards to its
>> relationship to the Torah - so for Torah observant Christians this subject
>> has relevance.
>>
>> If you read the text in Jeremiah in which you quoted, you will see the
>> context for the "heart circumcision" takes place not in this World, but in
>> the World to Come - for its states that when is "heart circumcision" takes
>> place people will not need others to teach or explain things to them. And
>> the fact that this thread, this entire forum, is proof that it hasn't
>> happened yet. But I greatly diverge from the actual point of my post, for
>> which I apologize.
>>
>> Again, my question is not about the word shatnaz itself, but rather the
>> clause "wool and linen" is there anything in the grammar of the verse to
>> suggest "hey, this is the definition" or "hey, these are just examples". 
>> How
>> does the clause "wool and linen" relate to the word "shatnez".
>> Which transation for be more valid:
>> "shatnez, which is wool and linen"
>> or
>> "shatnez, for example wool and linen"?
>>
>>
>> B"H
>> John Steven
>>
>>
>>
>> James Christian wrote:
>>
>> I offer the following contribution to the discussion.
>>
>>  Many times when I have found two conflicting traditions further
>> inspection has shown that both are correct in their own ways. It is a well
>> known fundamental linguistic truth that words have different uses and 
>> evolve
>> in different ways. Let's take the Greek word stauros as an example. In
>> ancient Greek it had many uses predominantly that of a wooden stake. In
>> modern Greek, largely catalysed by Orthodox Christian traditions the word
>> pretty much exclusively means cross.
>>
>>  In generic terms Shatnez most likely did mean mixes in general as the
>> Karaites assert and your example from Leviticus 19:19 shows. However, the
>> prohibition in Deuteronomy 22:11 clearly isn't talking about mixes in
>> general in this context. It is saying something like "You shouldn't wear a
>> mix of wool and linen together". Just like the evolution of the Greek
>> language forced by religious belief has caused the Greek word stauros to
>> completely change its primary usage it is highly likely that over the
>> centuries Rabbinic take on the Torah has caused Shatnez to lose its generic
>> sense and become the more specialised sense of 'wool and linen'.
>>
>>  In conclusion, I find the most highly likely answer that they are both
>> right and yet both not entirely right. The Karaites being right in the 
>> sense
>> that it was used of mixes in general. The Rabbis being right in the sense
>> that this prohibition was a very specific one. However, for Christians who
>> are circumcised in heart rather than in flesh as they are not under Mosaic
>> law but guided by the law of the spirit the question is what symbolic,
>> prophetic meaning what foreshadow what spiritual content and relevance to 
>> us
>> could this prohibition have?
>>
>>  James Christian
>>
>> 2010/2/12 Richard <aaa AT endlyss.com>
>>
>>> The only other time the word appears is in Leviticus 19:19 talking of
>>> mingling unlike things whether seed, animals, or clothing so it seems to
>>> me
>>> at a quick look that the word shaatnez would not be the definition but it
>>> is
>>> very ambiguous. My take is that the Karaite view would be correct.
>>>
>>> Hopefully we will get more insight.
>>>
>>> Richard Conaway
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Brak [mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:37 PM
>>>  To: aaa AT endlyss.com; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org >> Hebrew
>>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Shatnez: Wool and Linen, or Animal Fiber and
>>> Plant
>>>  Fiber?
>>>
>>> What about just the clause "wool and linen"? Without looking into the
>>> word
>>> shatnez itself, and the phrase "wool and linen" be interpreted as the
>>> definition or example or ambiguous? Does the grammar support it to be one
>>> over the other (or even more than the other)?
>>>
>>> B"H
>>> John
>>>
>>> "He who makes a mistake is still our friend; he who adds to or shortens a
>>> melody is still our friend; but he who violates a rhythm unawares can no
>>> longer be our friend."
>>> -Ishaq Ibn Ibrahim 767-850 CE.
>>>
>>> "If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you
>>> behave."
>>> -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
>>>
>>> "The difference between the intelligent man and the simpleton is not the
>>> correctness of their decisions, but rather the cunning sinner can more
>>> skillfully defend and justify his iniquity."
>>> - Rabbi Tovia Singer
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard wrote:
>>> Everything I can find so far the word simply means "mixed stuff".
>>>
>>> Richard Conaway
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
>>> bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Brak
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 8:20 PM
>>> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: [b-hebrew] Shatnez: Wool and Linen, or Animal Fiber and Plant
>>>
>>> Fiber?
>>>
>>> In Deut 22:11 it states:
>>> <LO) TIL:B.A$ $A75(A+:N"Z CEMER W.PI$:T.IYM YAX:D.FW00>
>>> "You shall not wear Shatnez, wool and linen together."
>>>
>>> My question is thus:
>>> Linguistically, is the phrase "wool and linen" a definition of Shatnez
>>> (according to Rabbinic Judaism) or an example of Shatnez (according to
>>> Karaite Judaism). Or is it ambiguous, and can be read either way?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> B"H
>>> John Steven
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>