Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>]

James,
I found the end of your reply to be inappropriate.
For one, not everyone on this board is a Christian - so for Jews this is 
subject has relevance.
For two, in Christianity there are varying beliefs in regards to its 
relationship to the Torah - so for Torah observant Christians this 
subject has relevance.

If you read the text in Jeremiah in which you quoted, you will see the 
context for the "heart circumcision" takes place not in this World, but 
in the World to Come - for its states that when is "heart circumcision" 
takes place people will not need others to teach or explain things to 
them. And the fact that this thread, this entire forum, is proof that it 
hasn't happened yet. But I greatly diverge from the actual point of my 
post, for which I apologize.

Again, my question is not about the word shatnaz itself, but rather the 
clause "wool and linen" is there anything in the grammar of the verse to 
suggest "hey, this is the definition" or "hey, these are just examples". 
How does the clause "wool and linen" relate to the word "shatnez".
Which transation for be more valid:
"shatnez, which is wool and linen"
or
"shatnez, for example wool and linen"?


B"H
John Steven



James Christian wrote:
> I offer the following contribution to the discussion.
>
> Many times when I have found two conflicting traditions further 
> inspection has shown that both are correct in their own ways. It is a 
> well known fundamental linguistic truth that words have different uses 
> and evolve in different ways. Let's take the Greek word stauros as an 
> example. In ancient Greek it had many uses predominantly that of a 
> wooden stake. In modern Greek, largely catalysed by Orthodox Christian 
> traditions the word pretty much exclusively means cross.
>
> In generic terms Shatnez most likely did mean mixes in general as the 
> Karaites assert and your example from Leviticus 19:19 shows. However, 
> the prohibition in Deuteronomy 22:11 clearly isn't talking about mixes 
> in general in this context. It is saying something like "You shouldn't 
> wear a mix of wool and linen together". Just like the evolution of the 
> Greek language forced by religious belief has caused the Greek word 
> stauros to completely change its primary usage it is highly likely 
> that over the centuries Rabbinic take on the Torah has caused Shatnez 
> to lose its generic sense and become the more specialised sense of 
> 'wool and linen'.
>
> In conclusion, I find the most highly likely answer that they are both 
> right and yet both not entirely right. The Karaites being right in the 
> sense that it was used of mixes in general. The Rabbis being right in 
> the sense that this prohibition was a very specific one. However, for 
> Christians who are circumcised in heart rather than in flesh as they 
> are not under Mosaic law but guided by the law of the spirit the 
> question is what symbolic, prophetic meaning what foreshadow what 
> spiritual content and relevance to us could this prohibition have?
>
> James Christian
>
> 2010/2/12 Richard <aaa AT endlyss.com <mailto:aaa AT endlyss.com>>
>
>     The only other time the word appears is in Leviticus 19:19 talking of
>     mingling unlike things whether seed, animals, or clothing so it
>     seems to me
>     at a quick look that the word shaatnez would not be the definition
>     but it is
>     very ambiguous. My take is that the Karaite view would be correct.
>
>     Hopefully we will get more insight.
>
>     Richard Conaway
>
>
>
>
>     From: Brak [mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com <mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com>]
>     Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:37 PM
>     To: aaa AT endlyss.com <mailto:aaa AT endlyss.com>;
>     b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org> >>
>     Hebrew
>     Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Shatnez: Wool and Linen, or Animal Fiber
>     and Plant
>     Fiber?
>
>     What about just the clause "wool and linen"? Without looking into
>     the word
>     shatnez itself, and the phrase "wool and linen" be interpreted as the
>     definition or example or ambiguous? Does the grammar support it to
>     be one
>     over the other (or even more than the other)?
>
>     B"H
>     John
>
>     "He who makes a mistake is still our friend; he who adds to or
>     shortens a
>     melody is still our friend; but he who violates a rhythm unawares
>     can no
>     longer be our friend."
>     -Ishaq Ibn Ibrahim 767-850 CE.
>
>     "If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you
>     behave."
>     -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
>
>     "The difference between the intelligent man and the simpleton is
>     not the
>     correctness of their decisions, but rather the cunning sinner can more
>     skillfully defend and justify his iniquity."
>     - Rabbi Tovia Singer
>
>
>     Richard wrote:
>     Everything I can find so far the word simply means "mixed stuff".
>
>     Richard Conaway
>
>
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
>     <mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:b-hebrew-
>     <mailto:b-hebrew->
>     bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org>] On
>     Behalf Of Brak
>     Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 8:20 PM
>     To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>     Subject: [b-hebrew] Shatnez: Wool and Linen, or Animal Fiber and Plant
>
>     Fiber?
>
>     In Deut 22:11 it states:
>     <LO) TIL:B.A$ $A75(A+:N"Z CEMER W.PI$:T.IYM YAX:D.FW00>
>     "You shall not wear Shatnez, wool and linen together."
>
>     My question is thus:
>     Linguistically, is the phrase "wool and linen" a definition of Shatnez
>     (according to Rabbinic Judaism) or an example of Shatnez (according to
>     Karaite Judaism). Or is it ambiguous, and can be read either way?
>
>     Thanks in advance
>
>     --
>
>     B"H
>     John Steven
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