Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Stoney Breyer" <stoneyb AT touchwoodcreative.com>]

James, you have perhaps forgotten that this discussion was launched by
Joseph Justiss' inviting comments on a schema which distinguishes between
narrative and discursive texts.

 

Rolf's rejection of that schema was twofold: first, that its treatment of
narrative was circular/tautological, and second, that its author misused the
technical term 'tense'.

 

You, Karl and Dave are interested in the second matter, and have engaged  in
a vigorous discussion in which I saw need to participate, since my own
position was adequately represented (by you, in fact).

 

I am interested in the first matter, and asked Rolf for clarification of his
own definition, which he has supplied. I find that definition inadequate;
but in the face of his insistence that that is the formal definition
universally employed by linguists I (while observing, in passing, that I
felt there was room for rapprochement between our positions) bowed out of
the discussion.

 

I apologize for intruding my interests on yours.

 

Stoney Breyer

Writer / Touchwood Creative

 

From: James Christian [mailto:jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 8:18 AM
To: Stoney Breyer
Cc: Rolf Furuli; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] BH verbal system

 

Stoney, what exactly do you believe of value a discussion of the meaning of
'narrative' brings to the bigger picture - that of analysing the Hebrew verb
system? To everyone, except you, it was quite clear what Rolf meant but this
definition was not fundamental to his position. His position comes from his
analysis of the verb forms not from his definition of narrative. The plain
and simple fact is that the majority of the Hebrew corpus we have relates,
almost exclusively, events in the past.

 

Do you have anything of value to offer to the discussion other than
continuing to debate the nature of the term 'narrative'? Continuing to
disagree with Rolf's usage of a term, which he has provided his working
definition of (according to good academic practice) just seems to highlight
that you have nothing else to contribute. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

James Christian

 

2010/2/1 Stoney Breyer <stoneyb AT touchwoodcreative.com>

Well... it's a long way from "A narrative *is seen as* a recapitulation of
past experience" to a "fundamental linguistic truth" - but if that's the
useful fiction linguists employ to get to your results, and Comrie's, I
can't quarrel with it. Me, I'd treat verb form as a matter of narrative
convention and found my analysis on a virtual translation of the deictic
center - to build on a conceit you employed some years ago, I understand
narrative as a 'tracking' camera as opposed to a 'panning' camera. But I
have a professional bias towards treating narrative as displaced drama.


Stoney Breyer
Writer / Touchwood Creative

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Rolf Furuli
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 11:06 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] BH verbal system

Dear Stoney,

The Latin verb NARRO means "to tell something,2 and factual and
fictious events can be told in many ways. The evangelist Mark, for
example, often uses what is called historic present when he tells
something. However, in a technical linguistic sense "narrative" has a
more restricted meaning. In "Dictionary of Linguistics and Phonetics"
a part of Davis Crystal's definition of the word is as follows: "A
narrative is seen as a recapitulation of past experience in which
language is used to structure a sequence of (real or fictious)
events."

David Comrie in his book "Tense" (1985:61) has the following comments
regarding narrative:

"In looking for examples of relative time reference, it is essential
to ensure that the relative time reference interpretation is part of
the meaning of the form in question, rather than an implicature
derived from, in part, the context. One area which is particularly
confusing in this respect is narrative, where one gains the
impression of a sequence of events which are located temporally one
almost immediately after the other, the chronological sequence
mirrored in the linear order of clauses. Thus one might be tempted to
think that this sequence is part of the meaning of the verb forms
used, thus introducing the meaning of 'immediate past'' or 'immediate
future' relative time reference (depending of whether one defined the
time reference of the preceding verb in terms of the following verb,
vice versa).  However, as was shown in section 1,8 the sequencing of
events is a property of the narrative itself, quite independent of
the verb forms used to encode narrative, so that the mere fact that
the verb forms receive this interpretation in narrative is not
sufficient evidence for assigning the meaning of these verb forms."

The point I tried to convey, was that when the WAYYIQTOL form so
often is used in Hebrew narrative, this does not mean that the form
itself is grammaticalized past. Past reference is the very nature of
narrative (in the technical linguistic sense), and therefore any form
used in narrative sequences irrespective of the semantic meaning of
the form, must have past reference. Please note that I speak of
narrative sequences, and not of situations where a sequence is broken
by direct speech or anything else.


Best regards,

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo



>Rolf:
>
>My faith in the admirable clarity and rigor of your analysis is
>profoundly shaken by this:
>
>>  It is a fundamental linguistic truth that verbs used in narratives
>have past reference.
>
>On what basis do you make this assertion? It seems to me neither
>self-evident nor borne out by linguistic fact, teste folktale and joke
>on the one hand, and the practice of many eminent writers of fiction on
>the other.
>
>Stoney Breyer
>Writer / Touchwood Creative
>
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2660 - Release Date: 01/31/10
19:35:00



_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2660 - Release Date: 02/01/10
12:37:00