Biblical Hebrew Forum

[James Christian <jc.bhebrew AT googlemail.com>]

Hi,

2010/2/1 <dwashbur AT nyx.net>

> Karl already answered most of this, so I'll just add a comment or two:
>
> On 1 Feb 2010 at 10:03, James Christian wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Dave, so let's take a look at the 'present tense'.
> > (1) He knows Sally
> > (2) John works at the factory
> > This expresses both past, present and future.
>
> Wrong.  Both express present and say nothing about past or future.  You're
> doing classic
> eisegesis there.
>
>
No I'm not. As I mentioned to Karl a simple modification of sentence (2)
shows the sense I meant:

(2b) John works at the factory every day

which has a different meaning from

(2c) John is working at the factory

If you can't see that 2b includes temporal references that 2c doesn't then I
don't know what further I can do to show you.

> (3) And so after he went into the bar he goes up to the barman and
> > orders a pint
> > These express actions in the past.
>
> And it's faulty English grammar.  Aberrations cannot be used to determine
> normative usage.
> I'd say "nice try," but really it's not.
>
>
It's faulty English according to who? According to a minority of English
speakers who attempt (often failingly) to adhere to some form of 'standard'
English? Or to the billions of native English speakers who say things like
this all the time, it being an accepted part of the natural grammar they
carry in their heads? This is a well known use of English present simple. Do
even a basic TEFL course and these elementary concepts will be introduced to
you.

I have to say I am quite shocked seeing this reaction from you. I really
didn't expect it. I've seen you in the past defending the fundamental
principle of language that usage defines the meanings of words and thought
that to someone who accepts such a position would also plainly see the
futility in trying to command a living language not to evolve or to conform
to its natural usage but to be constrained to some ideal of a 'standard'
which only a minority (failingly) attempt to use.

> (4) And so when you come to me you can check.
> > This expresses something that will happen in the future
>
> Once again we are looking at subjunctives in both clauses.  I'm not sure
> what part of that
> idea is beyond your grasp.
>
>
Which part of 'it doesn't matter what you call them' is beyond your grasp?
For the intents and purposes of a naive analysis with no informants (as we
are attempting to do with Hebrew) the verb form is exactly the same. The
fact that you analyse these (as an informant) differently only goes to show
that more than one function can map onto the same form. If you stand back
and look at the greater picture for a moment you might just realise that we
are actually saying exactly the same thing.


> > Conclusion. No fixed tense is grammaticalised and uncancellable to
> > the 'present simple' verb
> > form. Are we to conclude that these are homonyms as well David? How
> > many examples will it
> > take to show that tense is not uncancellable to any verb form in
> > English you could possibly
> > chose?
>
> No, they're not homonyms, and this pale attempt at reductio ad absurdum
> falls on its face.
> How many examples?  A few legitimate ones might suffice, but so far I
> haven't seen any.
> What I have seen is a pitifully inadequate understanding of English
> grammar, coupled with
> massive reading-in of preconceived ideas.
>
> This is a waste of my time.  I will not respond to this butchery of English
> grammar again.
>
>
All of the examples are legitimate David. They are natural language. Examine
any corpus of spoken English large enough and you will see it for yourself.
We could claim that every native speaker of English speaks 'bad English' but
this is, linguistically speaking, the very definition of naive. (for many
examples of the historic use of the present simple just turn on any stand up
comedian and you will hear lot's of them)

Similar phenomenon can be seen in many languages. Let's take Italian for
example. In 'correct' Italian when formally addressing a crowd of people you
don't know very well you're supposed to address them as 'Loro' (they). Try
doing this in real life and you are only likely to do one of two things.
Either make them think you really are talking about 'they' and not
addressing the crowd or causing outbreaks of hilarious laughter when they
realise you are talking some kind of archaic Marco Polo style version of
Italian. Natural languages do NOT obey text book grammars. Their grammar is
defined by their usage. Much to the dissatisfaction of primary school
teachers and to the minority who took it in good faith that they actually
know what they are talking about.

James Christian


> Dave Washburn
>
> http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>