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Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?
- From: "R. Lehmann" <lehmann AT uni-mainz.de>
- To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?
- Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:50:39 +0200
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:48:20 +0300
From: Vadim Cherny <him AT vadimcherny.org>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4A8FDB04.3090809 AT vadimcherny.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
What is the consensus opinion of the original functioning of begedkefet
pairs:
1. A difference in aspiration b/bh, or
2. Completely different sounds b/v ?
The first supposition is problematic in many environments. It is rather
impossible to pronounce, say, yeshobhebh with long tzere vowel.
The second supposition runs against our understanding of alphabet.
Presumably, letters were introduced to reflect sounds, and it is rather
unlikely that two very different sounds, b/v, were recorded with the
same letter.
If we take dagesh as post-LXX phenomenon, we're still faced with the
same questions, whether it denoted an often unpronounceable aspiration
change or two completely different sounds.
There seems to be a valid argument against the supposition of two
different sounds. A "completely different" dagesh-ed version of caf
would be indistinguishable from het, and of tav - from sin. At least caf
and tav seems to be aspirated in un-dageshed form, kh and th, respectively,
So, a problem is this:
- presumably, dagesh always means the same thing, whether a change of
aspiration or a new sound (sibilant?)
- at least some begedkefet pairs only differ by aspiration depending on
dagesh, and it seems to follow that all begedkefet pairs must differ by
aspiration
- in some environments (yeshobhebh), the aspirated versions are nearly
unpronounceable.
Could it be that dagesh means something else, perhaps a vocal stop,
rather than lack of aspiration or sibilance?
Vadim Cherny
Whatever the consensus might be (and I do not agree with Kevin Riley), there is still a general problem with dageshes and single points in the middle of letters at all, i.e. including dagesh lene/ forte, Shureq and Mappiq:
Simply, a point in the middle of a consonant denotes forced, amplified or accelerated pronounciation of that consonant. Depending on A. kind of consonant, and B. phonemic environment, and maybe C. syntactical environment, this amplification has different effects, which we are familiar with by the wellknown dageshing rules, Shureq(- u) pronounciation of Waw, or viceless laryngal of final He (which is the rule at the beginning and middle of a word).
Thus, yes:
- presumably, dagesh always means the same thing, whether a change of
aspiration or a new sound (sibilant?)
but with different effects, depending on … (see above).
And this:
- in some environments (yeshobhebh), the aspirated versions are nearly
unpronounceable.
By no means it is. At least not for a German native speaker ;-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
Academic Director
Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
D-55099 Mainz
Germany
lehmann AT uni-mainz.de
http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?
, (continued)
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
Yodan, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/24/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, Kevin Riley, 08/24/2009
- [b-hebrew] just a TEST; please do not reply; sorry about the bother, Yodan, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
Yodan, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
Vadim Cherny, 08/24/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, James Read, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
Vadim Cherny, 08/24/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, Vadim Cherny, 08/24/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
James Read, 08/23/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, Kevin Riley, 08/23/2009
-
Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?,
Petr Tomasek, 08/24/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, James Read, 08/24/2009
- Re: [b-hebrew] Dagesh - a different sound or aspiration?, James Read, 08/24/2009
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