Biblical Hebrew Forum

[K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>]

Yitzhak:
This is getting tiring!

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 6:20 AM, Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com>wrote:

> Karl, I think a bit of review is necessary.
>
> You raised your stand in one of the posts that 'lh tldt is a reference
> to an ancient
> style.
> Various evidence was raised against it, including evidence showing that
> already
> in the Old Babylonian period, there was a use of names to begin letters.
> You claimed these couldn't be from the 18th century BCE because these
> Thutmose III is actually from the 10th century BCE.
> It now seems the problem you have with Thutmose III being from the 16th
> century
> BCE is that in your opinion, and using your interpretation of the
> Bible, it conflicts
> with Biblical claims.
>

No … no … no … no … no … no … ! I did not say that!

You brought up a few examples to try to prove your point concerning the
dating of literary styles, and my answer was merely that historians disagree
on the dating of those examples, therefore you cannot use them as proof.
That was all I said concerning those examples. Where do you get the rest of
the argument you state in the above paragraph?

>
> What is missing here still is the evidence you have for Thutmose III being
> from
> the 10th century BCE.


Where is your proof that he is from the 15th century BC? Historians have
disagreed with that claim for over half a century. And that includes
historians who do not believe the Bible, but base their disagreements on
archaeological, historical and other data.


>  Where is your "cache of Egyptian names transliterated
> into Hebrew around 1000 BC" that allows you to conclude that Thutmose III's
> Golden Horus name would have been transcribed as $$q?


YOU are insisting that it is ruled out, therefore where is your cache of
Egyptian names transliterated into Hebrew around 1000 BC that allows you to
rule it out? YOU insist that it is impossible, so where is your evidence
from the relevant languages during the relevant time period that backs up
your claim? Evidence from other languages and time periods don’t count as
proof.

All I say is, given our uncertain knowledge of both Biblical Hebrew and
ancient Egyptian pronunciations from about 1000 BC, and the fact that
transliterers at times do not hear the words that they transliterate
clearly, that you cannot rule it out, that it is a possibility. To go from a
possibility to a probability requires more information than included in just
this one example.


>  You don't like my
> evidence, fine, but you still remain without any evidence to back up your
> position that Thutmose III dates from the 10th century BCE,


We have evidence, and that is the historical account given in the Bible (the
evidence I’m familiar with) and I hear, but am not familiar enough with it
to argue it, that there is evidence from archaeology as well. Therefore, IF
the Biblical account is accurate history, THEN Thutmose III can not be from
the 15th century BC, ELSE it is possible for the modern reconstruction of
Egyptian dates to be accurate. The two accounts contradict.

The Bible dates the Exodus to the 15th century BC, you can’t deny that
without being incoherent. The story of the Exodus is that Israel left
suddenly, leaving behind a shattered and defenseless Egypt. I have read that
there is Egyptian corroboration in both historical accounts and
archaeological excavations, but dating to the 13th dynasty. Therefore, IF
the Biblical account is accurate, and IF (nested if) the evidence from the
13th dynasty is of the Exodus, THEN the 13th dynasty dated to the 15th
century BC THEN Thutmose III could be no earlier than the pharaoh who sacked
Jerusalem after Solomon died.


> …
> Also, your representation of my position regarding the Masoretic
> vocalization
> was not just a slightly different phrasing, it was totally off, and I
> don't appreciate
> being misquoted.


I don’t like being misquoted either, and your opening paragraph in this
posting is a good example of such.

But going from memory, did you not claim at one time that written Biblical
Hebrew must include the Masoretic points?


>
> Karl, give us the evidence.
>

Read the Bible, and you will find the evidence I am most familiar with.

The other option is that the Bible is not accurate history (hence my “IF”s
above), that though it clearly dates the Exodus to the 15th century BC, it
is mistaken in doing so. However, the only evidence I have seen to back up
this claim is based on beliefs, i.e. religion, ideology, philosophy, with no
solid evidence to back it up.

>
> Yitzhak Sapir
>

Karl W. Randolph.