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  • From: Gabe Eisenstein <gabe AT cascadeaccess.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] theories and standards
  • Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:19:24 -0700

Karl wrote:
>When looking at a sentence, there are certain grammatical and lexicographic
rules that indicate what meaning the sentence has. That?s true with all
languages. However, if the person speaking has a reputation for dishonesty
and lying, the words he speaks will have a very different reaction than if
he is known for being very honest and factual. The meaning of the sentence
is independent of the reaction of the hearers. When we look at the
who/how/why/when the language was written and transmitted, we are not
looking at the words, but on other clues to gauge how we should react to the
words.
[end Karl]

But Karl, how many times have your urged us to look at the context? Of course there are basic grammatical rules and there is a rough, abstract core-meaning(s) for each word; but to get the meaning of a particular sentence, paragraph, chapter, etc. you have to decide when words are being used metaphorically, idiomatically, seriously or ironically, poetically, etc. The intended (not the actual) effect on the listener is part of what the speaker/writer "means". If he's consciously lying, that's something different from accidentally making false statements, it is part of his meaning. And the context extends out beyond the borders of the text, to information about its composition.

Karl wrote:
>The problem with ?pre-history? is that there is no way to date it. ?Stone
age? tools and implements may have been used long after metals were used in
other parts of the world, in fact we know that that is the case as the North
American Indians were still stone age people at 1500 AD.
[end Karl]

Your leap from the observation about stone tools to "there is no way to date it" is unwarranted. When we find several cities built on top of one another, we know which ones came first. Starting from observations such as this, we can piece together some pretty good hypotheses that go back into pre-history.

Karl wrote:
>I, too, have been trained in the natural sciences. Unless my professors,
PhDs in the natural sciences, didn?t know what they were talking about, they
gave a definition for science the rules out the past as being a proper
subject for scientific investigation.
[end Karl]

This goes to the heart of your worldview. Forgetting about it can lead to needless debate. I assume that there was no geology, biology or astronomy where you were trained. Those sciences necessarily deal with past events. I would also argue that even physics has to deal with past events, but never mind that.
It does puzzle me as to why you make a big deal out of history vs. prehistory when both are in the past. Does the study of old documents yield scientific knowledge or not? If it does, don't we have to follow the same rules of evidence and reasoning with them as with nonverbal images, artifacts like pottery, architecture, food remains, etc. etc.?
What your definition of science tells us is that when you talk about history you immediately consider yourself to be abandoning the scientific viewpoint. So it isn't just that you have a different idea about Bronze Age literature and other such subjects, you don't think that a scientific discussion of them makes sense.
So in the future when you bolster a point by means of historical assertions, we will know that it's just a lapse on your part.


Gabe Eisenstein




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