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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?

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  • From: David Kummerow <farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?
  • Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:41:28 +1100

Hi John,

You've got it the wrong way around: it is not the presence of a pathah vis-a-vis hatef-pathah which signals interrogative heh vs definite article, but the presence or absence of the dagesh. The definite article is not simply /ha/ but /haC/, ie with gemination. It is the gemination which is determinative, not solely the orthographic vowel realisation as phonetically the vowel sound is exactly the same, as Yitzhak has already told you. It is not that "the dagesh mark isn't providing any additional information". As I've told you, the presence of the dagesh controls the orthographic realisation of the vowel -- so if you're going to remove the dagesh, you logically need to remove the preceding vowel also because they come together in the orthographic representation of the language.

The example I gave was the one already discussed: /hashshomer/.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
David Kummerow.


The vowel mark under the HE tells you if its interrogative vs definite article. The hatah patah tells you its interrogative, the patah tells you its definite article. So in this example the dagesh mark isn't providing any additional information. Even if the vowel mark is controlled by the dagesh - the point is that the vowel mark can provide the data on its own.

The example that you gave I wasn't able to find in the text. Could you provide the book/chap/verse for the two words, or can you spell them using the CCAT format?


B"H
John Steven



David Kummerow wrote:
Well, in your example, if you were to remove the dagesh from /ha??omer/, then how do you determine interrogative heh vis-a-vis definite article, since the definite article vis-a-vis interrogative heh is determined by the presence/absence of dagesh? Sure, you can resort to semantic grounds, but what is the formal indicator? It is not simply the vowel marking, but the presence or absence of the dagesh. If you're going to remove the dagesh, then you might as well remove the preceding vowel, because it's orthographic realisation is determined by the presence of the dagesh, which is in turn realised by the semantics of the phrase. Same issue with /wayyiqqtol/ vis-a-vis /weyiqtol/ etc.

Regards,
David Kummerow.







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