Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Peter Bekins <pbekins AT fuse.net>]

Fred and David,

I just wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring this thread, but  
I've been quite busy the last couple of days and I really don't have  
anything substantial to add. I agree that there seems to be a bias  
towards denominativization against deverbalization, and it may indeed  
stem from the fact that nouns are somehow viewed as more basic than  
verbs.

I just read Cohen's "La phrase nominale et l'evolution du system  
verbal en Semitique" in which he argues that the versatility of the  
verbless clause in Semitic drives a cycle of change in Semitic verbal  
systems by introducing new verbal forms built on the syntax of  
nominal predicates, an idea with which I substantially agree.  
However, this is an issue of grammaticalization where a lexical form  
acquires a grammatical function. The issue of denominativization vs  
deverbalization is mostly within the realm of lexicon and word  
formation.

I would guess that there would be a group of words whose meaning is  
more naturally nominal and a group whose meaning is more naturally  
verbal so that it would be easy to guess which one came first, but  
most words probably fall somewhere in between. I would be interested  
if anyone knows of any research into the topic.

Peter Bekins

On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:24 PM, David Kummerow wrote:

> Hi Fred,
>
> Not sure if you were meaning to send this privately or not; I'll  
> keep it private in case.
>
> That is another good question. In terms of Hebrew or Semitic  
> linguistics, I very much doubt that the question is addressed.  
> Certainly it wouldn't be in any depth.
>
> Cross-linguistically, the category of "verb" and the category of  
> "noun" may generally be discernible, although any one language's  
> parts-of-speech may have a distribution that is smaller or wider  
> than another language's (see esp. Croft's _Radical Construction  
> Grammar_). It is the category of "adjective" which is very tricky  
> to isolate cross-linguistically (see Stassen's _Intransitive  
> Predication_).
>
> So since "noun" and "verb" are reasonably basic to language cross- 
> linguistically (I realise generativists will state this much  
> stronger than I), denominativization vis-a-vis deverbalization is  
> likely to be a complex question to address. I wish I had time to do  
> some research to see if anyone treats your important question  
> satisfactorily. I checked Lehmann's book on grammaticalization just  
> now hoping there might be something, but no luck.
>
> Regards,
> David.
>
>
> > Peter & David (et al.),
> > I have often wondered about this: how can we know that a verb is  
> > denominative rather than the noun being deverbal? I have read a  
> > fair amount of theoretical and historical linguistics (Hebrew and  
> > general), but never seen this discussed.
> > It seems that the theory of denominativization assumes that nouns  
> > precede verbs in the development of a language; has this ever been  
> > demonstrated?
> > I'm not arguing against it, just wondering how sure we can be that  
> > things worked/happened this way.
> > Peace.
> > Fred
> > P.S. My students had just read the chapter on the piel, and one  
> > asked (to general head-nodding), "So what difference does this  
> > make, anyway? I mean, why does it really matter that we know that  
> > these verbs are piel, since they just sound normal?" A very  
> > interesting discussion ensued, as you might imagine.
> > On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 5:44 PM, David Kummerow  
> > <farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com <mailto:farmerjoeblo AT hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >     Gday Peter,
> >     I had the thought when I was writing this that someone might  
> > pick me up
> >     on this. Sorry, I agree that the Piel also has a denominative  
> > function,
> >     and I did not mean to imply that it doesn't. I only left it  
> > out as it is
> >     the minor of the functions of the Piel, I think. But that's a  
> > hunch and
> >     I would need to do some research to see if it is accurate.  
> > Jenni likely
> >     lists the statistics, but his volume is in my son's bedroom.  
> > In any
> >     case, we agree as to the functions of the Piel.
> >     Now regarding the question of research comparing denominatives  
> > across
> >     the various binyanim, that is a great question! I cannot think  
> > of anyone
> >     who has done this. It would therefore make, I think, for a  
> > good phd
> >     topic for someone looking for one in Hebrew or Semitic  
> > linguistics. It
> >     would be quite valuable in my opinion.
> >     Regards,
> >     David Kummerow.
> >      > David wrote:
> >      >
> >      > > Of course, as I've stated previously, the verbal  
> > plurality function
> >      > > of the Piel I take as one of its functions, with a  
> > resultative/
> >      > > causative/estimative function of (generally) stative  
> > verbs being
> >      > > its other main function, as Jenni and others have shown.
> >      > >
> >      > > Regards,
> >      > > David Kummerow.
> >      >
> >      > The qal, hifil, and piel themes are also used as  
> > denominatives. Jenni
> >      > and Ryder seem to disagree as to whether the piel as a  
> > denominative
> >      > functions the same as it does when a factitive. Stuart  
> > Creason in his
> >      > U Chicago dissertation _Semantic classes of Hebrew verbs_  
> > deals with
> >      > the denominative function briefly, but his focus is more on  
> > the
> >      > relationship of the stems themselves. Do you know of any  
> > study that
> >      > compares qal, piel, and hifil denominatives, either for  
> > Hebrew or
> >      > Semitic in general, to see if there is any rhyme or reason  
> > for which
> >      > types of noun prefer a certain binyan?
> >      >
> >      > Peter Bekins
> >      >
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> > --
> > --)---------------
> > Fred Putnam
> > Philadelphia Biblical University
> > 215-702-4502 (office/voicemail)
> > 215-393-9683 (home)
> > www.fredputnam.org <http://www.fredputnam.org> (website)