Biblical Hebrew Forum

[LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>]

What do you mean, "how do I see it/"


 
Lloyd Barré
 
 

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au> wrote:

From: Doug Belot <dbelot AT bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com, "Yohanan bin-Dawidh" <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>, 
"b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 12:40 AM

How do you see the translation of the tetragramaton in Jer 23:6 , and is the
Jole 2:32 , "Call on the name of the LORD" , the same name , and
should it be apllied in Rom 10:13

doug belot

----- Original Message ----- From: "LM Barre"
<l_barre AT yahoo.com>
To: "Yohanan bin-Dawidh" <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>;
"b-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible






Lloyd Barré



--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
wrote:

From: Yohanan bin-Dawidh <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] More Yahweh outside the Bible
To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 5:01 AM



Lloyd;
You wrote, "Actually, it's pronounced Yahweh. We know this from the
LXX."
We do not know this from the LXX. I am glad that you are confident that such 
is
the pronunciation, and if such is the pronunciation that you choose to use, I
will not stop you from doing such, but please do not attempt to tell me how it
is pronounced, especially using a Greek translation to do such.
As to the pronunciation of YHWH, as Yahweh, in my opinion, which could be
wrong, this is a farce on part of the LXX, attempting to keep gentiles from
actually knowing how to pronounce the name. The name of YHWH was given the 
vowel
points to the Hebrew word Yahbeh, i.e. "Beautiful", as a mean to keep
people from actually being able to pronounce the name.
No, this is not right. The LXX translators had the oral tradition for the
vocalization of the name. I applaud the Jerusalem Bible and the New Jerusalem
Bible for finally translating the Tetragrammaton as "Yahweh."
You wrote, "I do not think that Isaac existed."
This is fine. I do think he existed, since he is one of my ancestors, and
according to my people's accepted history, he definitely existed.
You are not reading the Bible critically.
You wrote, "You take a pious approach, not an academic one."
How is that I take a pious approach? I see myself as taking a logical 
approach,
rather than a pious approach. I merely stated a fact that such things do not
disprove the Torah per se, this is neither pious, nor impious, just logic.
As I said, empericism does not allow "proof" but only probability of
various degrees.
You wrote, "The Torah was not formed until Ezra the Scribe."
We will have to agree to disagree, because I think it was completely formed
during the time of Yohoshu'a bin-Nun.
But you have no reasons for thinking so. Just wishful thinking to support your
Jewish nationalism.
Yohanan bin-Dawidh




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>From fred.putnam AT gmail.com  Sun Feb  8 17:26:59 2009
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To: Olivier Randrianjaka <rev_oli AT hotmail.com>
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Cc: b-hebrew Forum <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>, steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
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Dear Olivier,

Thanks for your note.

I've glanced quickly at occurrences of CHESED ... WEMETH with eight words of
each other in a single v. (28 occurrences). Their use suggests that they can
be considered a word-pair, even though (as you point out) they normally
primarily as a hendiadys (23xx), since they also occur five times as
parallel terms in synonymously parallel lines (Pss 57.11; 69.14; 108.5;
117.2; Is 16.5); perhaps we should add Josh 2.12 to this list, even though
its parallel clauses are not poetic lines.

So perhaps they were primarily a hendiadys that could also be split between
parallel lines so that they functioned as a word-pair (again, as the latter
term has come to be used).

Great question!

Peace.

Fred

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 2:44 AM, Olivier Randrianjaka 
<rev_oli AT hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Fred Putnam,
>
> Thank you for your contribution, I am quite brand new in this and I am
> wondering according to your explanation whether paired words like CHESED
> WEMETH, which is sometimes should be translated as a "hendiadys" are also
> classified as word pairs.
> Thanks for your helps.
>
> Olivier Randrianjaka
>
> > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:07:22 -0500
> > From: fred.putnam AT gmail.com
> > To: l_barre AT yahoo.com
> > CC: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; steve AT voiceinwilderness.info
>
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> >
> > Dear Lloyd,
> >
> > Word-pairs tend to occur in parallel poetic lines, as you suggest, and
> the
> > pairs that you list from Pr 10.1b-c are, of course, semanticaly parallel
> > pairs *in this verse*, but this is not really the way that the term has
> come
> > to be used in the study of ANE poetry (on which see my earlier post).
> >
> > To use the same example, "wise/foolish" and "father/mother" are
> word-pairs,
> > since they occur together, and in this order, not infrequently in the
> Bible.
> >
> > But are "makes glad" and "heaviness" a word-pair? [I cite the same
> version
> > for consistency.] The piel of SMX [Sorry--I don't have my transliteration
> > scheme to hand.] occurs 26xx (times) in Biblical Hebrew (15 of which are
> in
> > Pss/8xx & Pro/7xx--it is a more-or-less "poetic" form). None of its
> > occurences parallel TWGH, apart from Pr 10.1. Even in Jer 31.13, where
> the
> > "mourning", "joy", "sorrow", "rejoicing", &c. occur--with several "slots"
> > into which TWGH would seem to fit--it does not occur. This suggests quite
> > strongly that the verb SMX and noun TWGH are not a word-pair.
> >
> > TWGH occurs only 4xx (Ps 119.28 (no parallel); Pr 10.1; 14.13; 17.21), so
> > there is not much evidence upon which to identify them as a pair.
> >
> > On the other hand, TWGH is either the predicate or subject of Pr 14.13b,
> > where it occurs with--but does not parallel--the noun SMXH; in Pr 17.21
> it
> > parallels the qal of SMX, but their order is opposite that of Pr 10.1
> (TWGH
> > in 17.21a, qal of SMX in 17.21b). While this implies that these roots
> were
> > understood as antonyms--SMX is negated in order to create a synonymous
> > parallelism--it does not establish their identity as a word-pair; there
> is
> > not a large enough sampling to draw this conclusion.
> >
> > I hope that this makes sense.
> >
> > Thanks for asking, Steve--this is an interesting line of conversation.
> >
> > Peace.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 6:06 PM, LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Words used in parallel members--matching subject, verbs, objects,
> > > adjectives etc.
> > >
> > > A wise son maketh a glad father:
> > > but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.
> > >
> > > "Wise son" is paired with "foolish son," "maketh glad" is paired with
> > > "heaviness" and "father" is paired with "mother."
> > >
> > > Lloyd Barré
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Steve Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> > > To: "'b-hebrew Forum'" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 1:16 AM
> > >
> > > Can someone please explain: What is a word-pair? Thanks.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > -Steve Miller
> > > Detroit
> > > www.voiceInWilderness.info
> > > And I saw: and behold, a black horse, and he that sat upon it having a
> > > balance in his hand. And I heard as a voice in the midst of the four
> > > living
> > > creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts
> of
> > > barley for a day's wages: and do not injure the oil and the wine. (Rev
> > > 6:5b-6)
> > > The chariot in which are the black horses goes forth into the land of
> the
> > > north. (Zech 6:6a)
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> > > > bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of James Spinti
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:30 PM
> > > > To: b-hebrew Forum
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic
> literatures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not terribly recent, but have you looked at the 3 volumes of Ras
> Shamra
> > > > Parallels from Biblical Institute Press?
> > > >
> > > > HTH,
> > > > James
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > James Spinti
> > > > Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
> > > > Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
> > > > Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
> > > > jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
> > > > Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
> > > > Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
> > > > Fax: 574-269-6788
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> > > > bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Olivier Randrianjaka
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:53 AM
> > > > To: george.athas AT moore.edu.au; b-hebrew Forum
> > > > Subject: [b-hebrew] Word pairs in biblical and semitic literatures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all of you!!I am looking for the most recent works concerning Word
> > > > pairs studies in Biblical as well as in ancient Semitic literatures,
> CAN
> > > > ANYONE HELP?Thanks a lot. Olivier RandrianjakaPhD Student atMission
> > > School
> > > > and TheologyStavanger, Norway
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --)---------------
> >
> > Fred Putnam
> >
> > Philadelphia Biblical University
> >
> > 215-702-4502 (office/voicemail)
> > 215-393-9683 (home)
> > www.fredputnam.org (website)
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
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-- 
--)---------------

Fred Putnam

Philadelphia Biblical University

215-702-4502 (office/voicemail)
215-393-9683 (home)
www.fredputnam.org (website)