Biblical Hebrew Forum

[LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>]

Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From oldearther AT yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 18:49:25 2009
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:49:22 -0800 (PST)
From: John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com>
To: K Randolph <krandolph AT gmail.com>,
        "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job
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Karl,

Thanks for clarifying.  So you wouldn't consider "infinite time" to mean 
something opposite of "finite time"?   

John Estell




________________________________
From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 12:14:59 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job

John:
Sorry, I should have answered more completely.

>From the point of the start of the time period, it extends out into the
unknown future. Sometimes that refers to a finite period just of unknown
length, sometimes the unknown future is eternal.

The problem we sometimes run into is that some of the times where the Bible
intends a finite span, readers assume an eternal future. They make that
assumption based on the fact that there are times where an eternal future is
meant, such as in your examples below.

I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 8:36 AM, John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com>
> To: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>; "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:42:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job
>
>
> "...when people see (WLM they assume that eternity is meant, when only a
> time span of unknown length
> but which has a definite end is meant in the text."
>
> See Psalms 41:14, 90:2, 103:17, and 106:48.  Isn't God to be blessed
> forever?
>
> John Estell
>
>
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>From hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net  Fri Jan 30 18:49:35 2009
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:49:46 -0600
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "daughter of Zion" [was: (bless? curse?) in the Book
 of Job]
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Doug,
> Hi Harold , many thanks again for your continued response , when I say
> future generations , I mean from a date in the future from probabaly
> the time of the split of Jeroboam and Rheboam , I am thinking that
> would cover 2nd Kgs 19:21, which we see again in Is 37:21.
HH:  "Daughter" has no temporal implications when it is used in the
phrase "daughter of Zion." It is the context that determines the time.
The time of the split of Jeroboam and Rehoboam has no relevance for 2
Kings 19:21. Ezekiel 23 was a special case because of the allegory.
Daughter is used regarding many kingdoms and regularly speaks of the
contemporary kingdom, not the kingdom as the offspring of some other
kingdom.
>
> But for now how would you see Jeremiah's daughter , do you think this
> daughter is also future Israel ,

HH: No, it is not future Israel.
>
> Jer 6: 2 I have likened the "daughter of Zion" two a lovely and
> delicate woman

HH: No, it is not future Israel.
> Jer 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people
> slightly

HH: No, it is not future Israel.
>
> Jer 8:19 Listen , The voice, the cry of the daughter of my people

HH: No, it is not future Israel.

>
> Jer 8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of My people I am hurtJer 9:1
> For the slain of the daughter of my people

HH: No, it is not future Israel.
>
> Jer 9:7 For how shall I deal with the daughter of My people


HH: No, it is not future Israel.
>
> Also in Lametations with perhaps the Lam 4:22 the most obvious , but
> as it would seem to be a corporate term allegorically speaking would
> that not suggest that all "daughter of" would be in the  same context.
> I see it as your contest of  "Washington" , being substituted for the
> US . Could that be called "allegorically speaking" . Ok here is
> Lamenations ...
>
> Lam    1: 6 And from the daughter of Zion all splendour has left

HH: The text is talking about Jerusalem in all these verses;
contemporary Jerusalem in Jeremiah's time is in view.
>
>          1:15 The Lord has trampled the daughter of Zion
>
>          2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion
>
>          2:4 On the tent of the daughter of Zion .
>
>           2:8 On the wall of the daughter of Zion
>
>         2:11 The elders of the daughters of Zion . Because of the
> destruction of the daughters of Zion
>
>         2:15 At the daughter of Jerusalem .
>
>         2:18 O daughter of Zion , "Your tears run like a river"
>
>         4:22 Your punishment for your iniquity is complete O daughter
> of Zion.
>
>
>
> I am thinking that this daughter term , which I am suggesting fits in
> as Israel , so where we see the term "daughter of Zion" we can think
> Israel .

HH: You can think of Israel if you want. Sure. But it is specifically
Jerusalem.

>
> Perhaps  my point is that in the mother child of Is 66:7 with Zion as
> the mother , so any children would be the "daughter of Zion" , giving
> me "Zion" for Israel pre the split , and "daughter of Zion" , after
> the split.

HH: This is not the case. Zion and "daughter of Zion" can be the same
thing. It is a personification.
>
>
> I am wondering if as in Hos 1:-1-3 we see Hosea take a wife ,called
> Gomer , could Gomer be substituted for Israel , and thus be in
> allegorical terms also Zion which would make Hos 1:1-11 , and Is
> 66:6-10 simliar pasages , for that matter also Is 54:1 , they all sem
> to suggest that Israel will be a mother to children , seemingly a
> daughter..

HH: Yes, Gomer symbolically represents Israel, which God sometimes
describes as his wife, figuratively speaking. The word "Zion" does not
even occur in the Book of Hosea. Israel is a nation, sometimes
symbolized particularly by Jerusalem, which can be personified as a
woman. The residents of Zion can be symbolically described as the sons
and daughters of mother Jerusalem, or Zion, at times. The
personification can refer to a nation, as we see with Edom and Babylon,
but also with Judah:

KJV Lamentations 2:5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up
Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his
strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and
lamentation.

HH: But when you see daughter of Zion, though it specifically represents
Jerusalem, you can usually think in more general terms of the nation.
The writer is often focusing on the capital while intending to include
the whole nation.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard