Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>]

Dear Gad,

Now you're no longer arguing language but logic. Your argument is basically 
this: since it makes sense that the Israelites, after having escaped from 
Egypt, would compose a hymn to praise God for their deliverence, this must 
be it. So now you ask, whether we can use this poem to date the Exodus 
itself. There seems to be some very circular reasoning here: the WAS an 
Exodus, so the Israelites must have composed a song, so the song must be 
proof of the Exodus... (I know I simplified that, but you get the idea).

What HISTORICAL proof is there that there WAS an Exodus? The fact that the 
Bible says so? I suggest that we not get into that line of argument, lest 
the moderators put us both on probation : -).

Yigal Levin


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "G. Zack" <atdgz AT hotmail.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year of Exodus. Can Miriam's Song offer a clue?


> Yigal,
>
> According the FM Cross, the Song of the Sea  appears, arguably (see his 
> account and reasoning), to be a product of circa 13 century bce. It 
> includes some elements that point clearly to late 1200 (existence of 
> Philistines) yet also some pre 1200 elements (pre-monarchic chieftains in 
> Edom & Moab etc.).
>
> As well, elements of the 'conquest' of Canaan are included in it too...).
>
> It antiquity and period are also indicated by the account of the drowning 
> of the Egyptians. Rather than splitting of the sea and walking on dry 
> land, the later lore, it is almost a ntural phenomenon in the Song of the 
> Sea: God blows the Reed Sea waters to flood and drown the pursuing 
> Egyptians .
>
> All of the above said and granted, the antiquity of the text etc., indeed, 
> the question remains how useful it is in dating exodus.
>
> I made the humble claim that being based on an oral tradition, the roots 
> of which can be pin-pointed to circa 1200, one may speculatively  ask, why 
> would it be composed much later (even though it could have been, of 
> course)? If we assume that upon successful departure from Egypt the 
> escapees felt, indeed grateful and came up with a hymn, the Song of the 
> Sea, they must have done it upon joining the other Israelite elements and 
> within the same generation or, one or two generations later?   Some 0 to 
> some 60 years later?
>
> There is no proof here, just somewhat of a common-sense and/or educated 
> guess... Educated or common-sense in the sense that the language and 
> content may be shown to be 1200-ish coupled with the absence of reason for 
> delayed composition... No hard evidence. Admittedly...
>
> GAd Za"k
>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:19:33 +0200
> > From: leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il
> > To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Year of Exodus. Can Miriam's Song offer a clue?
> >
> > Gad,
> >
> > While it is true that many scholars have claimed that such poems as the 
> > Song
> > of the Sea and the Sond of Deborah and others as well, are "old" or 
> > "contain
> > archaic language", the is really no way to prove this. The main problem 
> > is
> > that since we have no extra-biblical examples of "early Hebrew" there is
> > nothing to compare them with. The similarities between Hebrew poetry and
> > that of Ugarit, for instance, does not prove anything about the date of 
> > the
> > Hebrew poetry. And we should always remember, that poets aften tend to 
> > use
> > "achaic" language.
> >
> > In the specific case of the Song of the Sea in Ex. 15, the mention of 
> > Edom,
> > Moab and Philistia, none of which, based on archaeological evidence, were
> > around as nations before the very late 13th century, might indicate
> > something, but who really knows for certain?
> >
> > Yigal Levin
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "G. Zack" <atdgz AT hotmail.com>
> >
> > >
> > > At any rate, as it is a Biblical Hebrew Language  Forum, most pertinent 
> > > to
> > > the forum is the text of Miriam's song, which, to my understanding, can 
> > > be
> > > __shown__ to be one of the oldest in the bible alongside the later 
> > > dated
> > > Deborah song (curiously--both are women-poets...-) and, I believe, even
> > > dated.
> > >
> > > I am surprised no reference was made to this point inthis forum and
> > > context.
> > >
> > > Can someone comment on that (which would also assist in dealing with 
> > > the
> > > issue of the date of Exodus...)?
> > >
> > > Gad Za"k
> > >
> >
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