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  • From: JimStinehart AT aol.com
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Carmel again
  • Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:23:17 EST


Kenneth Greifer:

You wrote: “I did not understand what you said lately about David being 7
miles south of Hebron in the wilderness. When you used to say Hebron was not
in
the Negev, how far away from the Negev did you mean it was? I am confused
because I thought you said Hebron was further north, but I don't think you
said
how many miles from the Negev desert. I know you have started a different
subject, but I think you could take a minute and answer my question even if
it is
stupid.”

Professor Yigal Levin set forth the scholarly view of Carmel, which is that
Biblical Carmel is the same place as the modern Arabic town with the Arabic
name of Kurmul. That Arabic town is located 7 miles southeast of the city of
Hebron.

On the Carmel thread (which is now closed, so I will not re-argue the points
I was trying to make on that thread), I tried to show that Biblical Carmel is
not the modern Arabic town of Kurmul, but rather is located on the northeast
corner of the Sorek Valley, a few miles west of hill country, based on the
Thutmosis III list, the Amarna Letters, and what is said about Abigail’s
Carmel in
I Samuel.

Your real question, though, concerns Hebron.

Based on secular history, the city name “Hebron” did not exist prior to the
8th century BCE. Archaeology has revealed that there was a grand citadel of
a
city at the site of the city of Hebron in the Early and Middle Bronze Age.
But in the Bronze Age that grand citadel of a city was not called “Hebron”.

If the Patriarchal narratives were composed prior to the 8th century BCE, and
if the most important geographical place name in the Patriarchal narratives
was not edited in during the 8th century BCE or later, then it is hard to see
how the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” could be one and the same place as the city of
Hebron. The city name “Hebron” was not in existence yet in the Patriarchal
Age, which in my controversial view is when the Patriarchal narratives were
composed. The city of Hebron is located 20 miles south of Jerusalem, in the
heart
of hill county, on the northern edge of the Northern Negev Desert. That
would
be an odd place for Abraham to choose to sojourn with his huge flock of sheep
and goats, which more naturally would be pastured in the Aijalon Valley. The
first thing the text of the Patriarchal narratives tells us (at Genesis 13:
18) about the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” is “oak trees”. Oak trees famously line
the Aijalon Valley, but the city of Hebron, in the Northern Negev Desert, is
too far south for there to be notable oak trees there.

The second thing the text of Genesis tells us about the Patriarchs’ “Hebron”
(also at Genesis 13: 18) is “Mamre”, which the text soon clarifies means, at
least in some contexts, “Amorite”. The new thread I have opened on Jacob-El
will attempt to show that the Aijalon Valley is the only place in southern
Canaan that historically was associated with the Amorites. That is a second
key
clue that the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” is the Aijalon Valley, not the city south
of Jerusalem in the Negev Desert that was later re-named “Hebron”.

Not a single Biblical author ever asserts that Abraham’s “Hebron” and David’
s Hebron are one and the same place. I do not think that a single Biblical
author viewed those two places as being the same place. It is a
post-Biblical
mistake that erroneously asserts, against the evidence in the Bible, that Ab
raham’s “Hebron” and David’s city of Hebron are one and the same place.


I agree with the standard view as to where the city of Hebron, being David’s
Hebron, was located. I disagree, however, with the standard post-Biblical
view that the Patriarchs’ “Hebron” is the city of Hebron. I view the
Patriarchs’
“Hebron” as being the Aijalon Valley, which is not located close to the
Negev Desert.

The reason I have discussed “Magaroth” and “Halhul” and “Carmel” on
previous threads is to try to get people to realize that towns listed at
Joshua 15:
52-60 are not necessarily located in hill country proper, but rather may be
located a few miles west of hill country proper, in the eastern Shephelah.

The problem is not what the Bible says about geography. No, the problem, in
my opinion, is the post-Biblical misunderstanding of what the Bible says
about
geography. The reason why the Bible never says that Abraham’s “Hebron” and
David’s Hebron are one and the same place is because every Biblical author
knew that they were two completely different places. David’s Hebron is the
city
of Hebron, located 20 miles south of Jerusalem in hill country, in the
Northern Negev Desert. The composition of the books in the Bible that
mention David
was done no earlier than the 8th century BCE (though David lived in the 10th
century BCE), and so the 8th century BCE city name “Hebron” is used. By
contrast, the Patriarchal narratives were composed prior to the 8th century
BCE,
before the city name “Hebron” existed, and in my view there was virtually no
later editing of the substantive content of the Patriarchal narratives. The
Patriarchs’ “Hebron” in Genesis is not the city of Hebron, but rather is the
Aijalon Valley.

Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois

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