Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Jane Peters <janepeters13041939 AT yahoo.co.nz>]

Thanks for all your helpful replies!
   
  * * * * *
   
  On 'All I said was’:
   
  Ø  Pere Porta:
  Ø  In Gen 20:11 there is "amarty raq" ...
  Ø  1. Why to use DBR and not )MR? 2. Why to use L'... KI 'M and not RQ? 3. 
Is L'MR the word that appears in Rt 2:15?
   
  Jane:
  That’s great. The translation we came up with here was clumsy, I admit, but 
I had problems with coming up with an equivalent idiomatic expression. I'm 
definitely discarding what we first came up with. And there’s no good reason 
for DBT or L’MR. 
   

Ø  Karl W. Randolph:

Ø  First of all, in analyzing the English, are there other ways of stating 
the English?

 

Jane:

That’s a helpful hint for translation, thanks.

 

Ø  Karl W. Randolph:

Ø  If the emphasis is on the "only", then where does it fit? Does it modify 
"I said" or the sentence that was said? Pere Porta and Yitzhak are correct in 
indicating that RQ is the correct word to use for "only", but it always 
precedes what it modifies. Not having seen the film, nor having heard of this 
sentence before, I am not sure which one is meant.
  
  Jane:
  RQ should modify )MR.
   
  Ø  Uri Hurwitz:
  Ø  kol asher amarti
   
  Jane:
  Thanks, Uri. I wonder if KL is used in a way that puts a stress on the 
sense of 'only'? I suspect RQ may be better for this emphasis.
   
  * * * * *
   
  On the Halibut:
   
  Ø  Pere Porta:
  Ø  Why do you use the demonstrative in masculine? Should HHW' not be in
  Ø   the 
  Ø  feminine: HHY', because the noun to which it refers is feminine?
   
  Jane:
  PW+YT is feminine, huh? HHY' it is, then.
   

Ø  Karl W. Randolph:

Ø  Different types of fish were not listed in Bible, so as Yithak translated, 
just using the word for "fish" is probably the way to go.
   
  Jane:
  You’re right, of course. But using PW+YT is more precise even if possibly 
anachronistic, and it adds to the humour. 
   

Ø  Karl W. Randolph:

Ø  the concept of YHWH being pleased to eat is problematic ideationally
   
  Jane:
  Undoubtedly. But there’s probably quite a lot in ‘The Life of Brian’ that’s 
problematic in this regard.
   
  * * * * *
   
  On: “Good enough for”:
   
   

Ø  Karl W. Randolph:

Ø  In the context, it appears that "that pleasing this fish for eats to YHWH" 
would fit the grammar...Thus one translation could be: RQ )MRTY KY +WB HDG 
HZH L)KLH LYHWH where the emphasis is more on "to eat" than "to YHWH"

 

Jane:

Thanks for that, that's great! The emphasis should definitely be on YHWH, 
however. Could I shift L)KLH LYHWH to between KY and +WB?

 

And it should be “that” fish. The speaker had just finished his wife’s meal, 
and was referring to the fish he had just eaten.

 
   
  Ø  Uri Hurwitz:

Ø  tov hayah b'eynei elohim

 

Jane:
  Some of the humour of the saying in ‘The Life of Brian’ is in the image of 
YHWH eating fish (for which the person gets stoned). I think b’eynei elohim 
loses some of that direct meaning.
   
  * * * * * 
   
  On: the language:
   

Ø  Yitzhak Sapir:

Ø  why Biblical Hebrew?  During the time of Jesus, a form of Mishnaic Hebrew 
as well as Aramaic and Greek were spoken.

 

Jane:

It was just for the fun of turning it into Biblical Hebrew. I was going to 
say something about this, and I guess I should have.

 

* * * * *

 

On: Mishnaic Hebrew translations:

 

Ø  Yitzhak Sapir:

Ø  In any case, I think the following would have passed for Mishnaic Hebrew, 
but I'm not sure: rak ?amarti $e?oto dag dayyo haya liyahweh. I only said 
that that fish was enough for Yahweh.

 

Jane:

What letter does the question mark stand for in “$e?oto” ? 

 

 

Ø  Uri Hurwitz:

Ø  Now towards the end of second temple days the language was more   
Mishnaic, and the approximate translation: "Kol sheamarti: dag zeh day tov 
hayah lamakom".

 

Jane:

Thanks again, Uri. 

 

 
   

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>From all that, I think I'm favouring:
   
  RQ )MRTY KY +WB L)KLH LYHWH HPW+YT  HHY’ 
   
   

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>From all that, I think I'm favouring:
   
  RQ )MRTY KY +WB L)KLH LYHWH HPW+YT  HHY’ 
   
   Actually  the language is too tortured, but perhaps not in 
  the funny tortured way one enjoyed in the skit.
   
   To give just one example: "RAQ" does not fit in the context.
   
   Cheers,
   
   The Faulty Towers groupie
   
    Uri Hurwitz                                                          
Great Neck NY



       
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] That piece of halibut was good enough for YHWH
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On Jan 26, 2008 3:24 AM, Jane Peters wrote:

>   =D8  Uri Hurwitz:
>
> =D8  tov hayah b'eynei elohim
>
> Jane:
>   Some of the humour of the saying in 'The Life of Brian' is in the image=
 of YHWH eating
> fish (for which the person gets stoned). I think b'eynei elohim loses som=
e of that direct
> meaning.

But the "in the eyes of God" is also an idiomatic expression, and if
one were to say "this
fish will be good enough for the eyes of Yahweh" I don't think one
loses anything at all.
The emphasis on the joke is not on the fact that poor Matthias views
Yahweh as human,
but rather that a quite harmless comment meant to compliment the
cooking of his wife
is an offense punishable by stoning by overly eager women.  This is
also the reason why
in the first mention of Yahweh, Yahweh ought to be at the end of the
sentence.  The
listener is held in suspense before he hears the word that is so wrong to s=
ay.

>   On: the language:

> =D8  Yitzhak Sapir:
>
> =D8  why Biblical Hebrew?  During the time of Jesus, a form of Mishnaic H=
ebrew as
> well as Aramaic and Greek were spoken.

> Jane:
>
> It was just for the fun of turning it into Biblical Hebrew. I was going t=
o say something
> about this, and I guess I should have.

The point is that it is quite anachronistic.  For example, how would
the Emancipation
Proclamation sound in Chaucer's English?  We can try to reconstruct
it, but it doesn't
really provide us with anything that anyone ever said.  Also, you seem
to want to
concentrate on spelling rather than pronunciation, even though in this
case -- the
sentence in question is one that probably wouldn't have been written
down anyway.
My purpose was to reconstruct the Hebrew equivalent of the sentence as
it would have
been spoken in the time in question.

> On: Mishnaic Hebrew translations:

> =D8  Yitzhak Sapir:
>
> =D8  In any case, I think the following would have passed for Mishnaic He=
brew, but I'm not
> sure: rak ?amarti $e?oto dag dayyo haya liyahweh. I only said that that f=
ish was enough
> for Yahweh.

? stands for aleph.  rak should be "raq".

I will not criticize other translations provided on here.  However,
your chosen translation
RQ )MRTY KY +WB L)KLH LYHWH HPW+YT  HHY'
where the aleph is transliterated by ) and ', is not only clumsy, it
is wrong.  +WB is an
adjective that should match the object (PW+YT) in gender and number.
Furthermore,
you are already here getting very close to Mishnaic Hebrew because in
earlier Hebrew,
instead of an adjectival construction, you'd have had a verbal construction=
:
... yy+b hdg hzh l?klh gm lyhwh

As for the translation of "pw+yt," in Modern Hebrew most speakers
prefer a direct
transliteration "hlybwt."  The fish is apparently not native to the
Mediterranean
Sea, and other water sources near Israel, so some places I looked at recomm=
ended
in replacing it with other fish in recipes.  I really don't think that
this is part of the
joke.  Again, the point is a harmless sentence about a fish course at
dinner, and
while for British viewers halibut may have sounded perfectly normal,
it is not that big
a deal that we must keep it.

Yitzhak Sapir