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  • From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
  • To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] virginity
  • Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:19:51 +0300

Dear Tory, Karl and all,

This has gone too far! Please stop the exchange of personal remarks at once.
While I do think that the topic itself is legitimate for discussion on
B-Hebrew, it must not be allowed to turn into an duel of insults. Any
further posts of this type, from any member, will be dealt with according to
the list rules.

Yigal Levin

co-moderator

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tory Thorpe" <torythrp AT yahoo.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] virginity


On Jul 17, 2007, at 8:50 PM, K Randolph wrote:

> Tory:
>
> You wrote, "Yes, well, Karl sees christian doctrine forcing
changes in
> the meaning of Hebrew words among native Hebrew speakers, ..."
This is
> libel, take it back. It is libel because it is a deliberate and
> willful broadcast of a falsehood.

It is not a falsehood. It is the claim you made: "there was no
problem among Jews with the understanding of (LMH meaning "virgin"
until after the Christian claim that Jesus was born of such... It can
be an indication that the word changed meaning over time."

It's normal that languages change.

And you really attempting to justify your remarks with banalities
like that? Your original claim was not simply that normal changes
have occurred in Hebrew but that Jews changed the meaning of a word
in their own language as a result of the Christian teaching that
Jesus was born of a virgin. You do not offer any evidence whatsoever
to back up this claim. It is repugnant.

what's wrong about claiming that the meanings of many Hebrew words
may have changed
meaning from when Hebrew ceased to be spoken as a native tongue to
centuries later when they were again used in the Mishnah and later?

What's wrong is that you have not offered an ounce of proof that the
term almah changed meaning among Jews since the advent of Christianity.

But I never claimed, not even remotely, that "christian doctrine
forcing changes in the meaning of Hebrew words among native Hebrew
speakers," and your defense of this libel only compounds this libel.

I see. I should not have said "native Hebrew speakers" since you do
not acknowledge any among Jews until the 20th century. Let me correct
this: "Karl sees christian doctrine forcing a change in the meaning
of a Hebrew word, namely almah, among Jews." Doesn't sound any less
offensive to me, and don't let your tendencies to pedantry change the
subject.

Who and how do you define "modern Hebrew scholar"? Your definition
> may be too restricted.

That's a long list. And though it includes all of my Jewish American
and Israeli professors, it also includes non-Jewish Christian
scholars like R. E. Brown: "It [almah] puts no stress on her
virginity" (The Birth of the Messiah [1977], p. 147); "two passages
demonstrate how poorly it [almah] would underline virginity: in Cant
6:8 it refers to women of the king's harem, and in Prov 30:19 an
almah is the object of a young man's sexual attention" (p. 147, n.
43); "No more than betulah is parthenos so clinically exact that it
necessarily means virgo intacta. The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon
gives several instances of the secular use of parthenos for women who
were not virgins" (p. 148, n. 45); "the MT of Isa. 7:14 does not
refer to a virginal conception in the distant future. The sign
offered by the prophet was the imminent birth of a child...naturally
conceived" (p. 148).

You didn't answer the second aspect of my question, namely, what
merits a person to be called a scholar? Would you include someone who
has evaluated word meanings so much that he has written a dictionary
from Hebrew to English?

It would depend on the quality of the work.

Does it include someone who has read Tanakh
through, cover to cover, around 20 times, as he knows Hebrew so well?

I recall you saying you did this. So what? I've read the holy TNK
from cover to cover, and much more than 20 times. In fact I know many
who have (very common actually), and some who have committed the
entire Torah to memory; but not one of them shares your odd beliefs
about our language.

Or is your list restricted only to those who are professors at secular
universities, showing that they have passed a political correctness
test of discipleship to their mentors, rather than showing independent
thought?

Sounds like you had a very bad experience at university. Why are you
wasting your time with scholarship when you aren't prepared to be
scholarly? Those who I would count as Hebrew scholars should have
been apparent to you from my own remarks and the citations from Dr.
Brown's book: it includes secular scholars and anyone of any faith
who is prepared to be scholarly and work independently of their
religious or political biases, otherwise they are incapable of being
useful scholars. You seem willing to fall over your biases.

As for the specific passages that you list above, the only one that
has not been answered recently is Proverbs 30:19 where there is
question whether or not it was pointed correctly by the Masoretes.

It is not an issue of Masoretic pointing. For b'almah the LXX read
"in youth" in its vorlage (I personally think the Gk mistakes
neanis). Thus the less speculative approach is one that questions the
spelling here in the MT, not the pointing. The only real reason I can
see for raising doubts about the pointing is because of an ideology
that seeks to define almah _only_ in terms of a physical virgin even
if that means accusing the Jews of changing the meaning of almah
since the advent of Christianity. You're just not interested in what
happened in the past or with the transmission of the text. You have
other interests.

>> This reading allows for physical virginity.
>
> This is like when talking about an old crone you simply call her a
> "mature woman". A mature woman includes any woman from 18 and
older,
> while crone is a subset of elderly women. Yes, you are technically
> correct, but far from accurate.

At what age were girls considered "mature" in preexilic Israel?

The example above is drawn from the English language. You should have
recognized that.

I'll take that as "I don't know".

You made reference to a book to back up your claim that Jews
understood almah to mean "virgin" from ? down to the 1400s. The book
makes no such claim, which does not inspire much faith in your other
assertions.

Just because you can't find it doesn't mean that it isn't there. I
don't have the book available to me so I could point you to the page,
but it was just a small comment that is easily missed, the only reason
I noticed it was because I was surprised to find it.

Well, I am still looking. You sure you have the right book? Anyway,
you shouldn't really be making a sensational claim, i.e. belief in a
virgin birthed Messiah held by Jews from ? down to the 1400s, and
attribute this to an author, when you are not ready to point to the
chapter and the page number of the book where the statement
supposedly appears.

Who said the word could not be used in reference to a virgin?

You did. Look below at where I quoted you.

There is a big difference between "young woman" and "virgin". Not all
virgins are young, and only some young women are virgins. If Isaiah
intended that "virgin" be understood, then to translate the term as
"young woman" is incorrect.

If Isaiah had intended physical virginity to be clearly understood he
would have undoubtedly wrote "woman/girl whom no man had known..."
which is the manner in which the Hebrew author of Jdg. xxi 12
expresses physical virginity so as to remove any possibility of doubt.

>>> The reasons that I and many others claim that (LMH means "virgin"
>>> are
>>> both linguistic and ideological:
>>
>> The reason for reading "young woman" is simply linguistic and does
>> not exclude your ideology. That's why the reading "young woman" is
>> nonpartisan.
>
> It is partisan. First because it is too inclusive, Young women
who are
> virgins are only a subset of young women. not all of them.
Secondly,
> because it is too inclusive, it can then be used for understandings
> that were not intended by the author, understandings that
historically
> have been driven by ideological considerations.

You mean like the birth of Jesus?

Yours is a red herring response. If "virgin" was intended by Isaiah,
then to translate the term with "young woman" is incorrect and
partisan for the reasons above.

It is not a red herring. You have not provided even a sub-atomic
particle of unambiguous evidence that Isaiah had in mind physical
virginity in Isa. vii 14, or that the word almah had this meaning
among Jews until the advent of Christianity. And you are kidding
projecting your partisanship onto me and every other serious scholar
(see definition of serious scholar above) who reads almah as "young
girl" in Isa. vii 14 and elem as "young man" (not "virgin"!) in 1 Sa.
xx 22.

The word is used too seldom for us to insist that it was restricted to
a certain age group.

But yet it is somehow not used too seldom for us to insist that it
was restricted to girls who were physical virgins? This is so trivial
it's silly.

Whether you accept those linguistic reasons (I did not invent them) or
not is not the question, the question is do those reasons exist and
are they linguistic? The answer to both is Yes.

In a parallel universe, perhaps. But in this world you are light
years from proving your case.

They are not novel because I did not originate the ideas. I first
heard about them decades ago in a lecture from someone who was citing
others, but I don't remember who he cited.

Again with the he said she said but I don't remember because it was
so long ago. If that is how you think scholarship works, you lack the
basics of how to do scholarship. The idea you champion is outside
mainstream views, and novel as far as scholarship is concerned, no
matter if it was introduced years ago by someone whose name you can't
remember.

... But you are certainly
free to believe in this.

This is certainly not what you stated in the quote above, where you
called such ideas 吹牛皮.

That was me trying to be kind to your (someone's) theory. You are
free to believe whatever cow dung you choose. Just because I
considered it cow dung doesn't mean I deny you the right to entertain
it.

In closing, you have not presented a single incontrovertible example
that backs up your claim above, i.e. "... as if almah cannot be used
to describe a married woman, which is totally false."

I certainly have. The alamot in Song of Sol. vi 8 were part of the
royal harem (as is recognized by Dr. Brown et al) which would make
many if not all of these young girls (lesser) royal wives, "married
women" forbidden to other men, in the context of the ancient Near
East. I will not say this again.

Tory Thorpe


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