Biblical Hebrew Forum

[dwashbur AT nyx.net]

You are arbitrarily redefining "virginity" to mean "intact hymen" whereas in 
the biblical text it 
clearly means "not having had intercourse."  I have yet to see anything 
anywhere in the 
textual or linguistic context that makes this redefinition valid.

On 16 Jul 2007 at 15:19, Isaac Fried wrote:

> Tory,
> 
> There is no, and there can not be, any reference in the Hebrew bible  
> to physical virginity as it MEANS NOTHING. We know, and the ancient  
> Hebrews certainly knew as well, that a girl may inadvertently lose  
> her virginity for no fault of her own. Some girls are born non  
> virgins, some girls need a certain medical intervention to facilitate  
> their blood flow during menstruation which may lead to virginity  
> loss, and a good number of girls loose their virginity by some common  
> non sexual activities. Lack of physical virginity is surely no  
> admissible evidence against any woman. You can rest assured that the  
> ancient Hebrews never stoned a woman to death for sheer lack of  
> virginity.
> 
> Isaac Fried, Boston University
> 
> On Jul 16, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Tory Thorpe wrote:
> 
> > On Jul 16, 2007, at 8:51 AM, K Randolph wrote:
> >
> >> Tory:
> >>
> >> You are guilty of pushing a particular reading for what historically
> >> have been ideological reasons.
> >
> > I disagree that the reading "young woman" in Isa. vii 14 is
> > ideologically driven. In fact, I have never heard or read any modern
> > Hebrew scholar make that claim. This reading allows for physical
> > virginity.
> >
> >> It is my understanding that there was no problem among Jews with the
> >> understanding of (LMH meaning "virgin" until after the Christian  
> >> claim
> >> that Jesus was born of such. The belief that Messiah would be born of
> >> a virgin continued among some Jews as late as the 1400s AD (mentioned
> >> in Rafael Patai "The Messiah Texts", I'm citing from memory having
> >> read the book decades ago
> >
> > I have this book and I've been searching but cannot find where a
> > belief in a virginal conception and birth of the Jewish Messiah was
> > maintained in Judaism from ? down to the 15th century. And you must
> > understand, saying there was "no problem among Jews with the
> > understanding of (LMH meaning 'virgin' until after the Christian
> > claim that Jesus was born of such" is unfounded and highly offensive.
> > It reminds one of a similar libelous claim that Jews altered their
> > Bible in response to Christian claims.
> >
> >> The reasons that I and many others claim that (LMH means "virgin" are
> >> both linguistic and ideological:
> >
> > The reason for reading "young woman" is simply linguistic and does
> > not exclude your ideology. That's why the reading "young woman" is
> > nonpartisan.
> >
> >> The claim that Mariam the mother of Jesus was a virgin at the time  
> >> she
> >> got pregnant and gave birth.
> >
> > I am not disputing this claim.
> >
> >> By prior agreement, we are enjoined from pushing the ideologic  
> >> reasons
> >> (the only reason I mention them above is to admit that they exist and
> >> that they are not linguistic), but we can mention the linguistic
> >> reasons which, contrary to your claims, is not "pushing our  
> >> ideology".
> >
> > If you translate almah as "virgin" in Isa. vii 14 you leave no room
> > for much else. That is why it is a partisan translation. The "young
> > woman" is not because physical virginity is not ruled out.
> >
> >> For you to deny that the linguistic reasons exist can only be
> >> understood as pushing your ideology,
> >
> > I don't think this part of your argument can be taken seriously. I
> > have not denied that you have linguistic reasons for your reading.
> > However, your reading, which you yourself admit is part ideology,
> > denies me mine. I stand by my claim that "young woman" cannot be
> > construed as an ideological reading.
> >
> > Tory Thorpe
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
> 
> 
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Dave Washburn
But I can't say Sylvester, George!