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  • From: JoeWallack AT aol.com
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Definite Article 7:14
  • Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:09:09 EDT

In a message dated 7/14/2007 10:25:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net writes:

Dear Joseph,
> HH: What difference does that make to the discussion one way or the other?
> JW:
> Because 7:14 is Dialogue and in Dialogue there is a clear Hearer. A better

> question for you is why is it so hard to find an example of a speaker in
> Dialogue using the definite article and the Hebrew Hearer not knowing the
identity?
>

HH: I don't fully accept your logic. A writer is still trying to
communicate to his readers, or in those days, his hearers. But trying to
respond to your request for a text like Isa 7:14 where there is dialogue
and a use of the definite article to refer to a somewhat unidentified
person or thing, how about "the lion" in 1 Kings 20:36. You see, this is
not just the genus lion. This is a specific lion:

1Kings 20:36 Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the
voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, "a
lion" shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion
found him, and slew him.
JW:
I'm asking for an example where the identity is definite to the speaker and
indefinite to the hearer. If I understand you correctly here you are saying
the lion is definite to the speaker and indefinite to the hearer. Is my
understanding correct?


HH: Or "the servant girl" below, who is not previously identified in the
context but is a specific person. We don't even know whose servant she was:

2Sam. 17:17 Jonathan and Ahimaaz were staying at En Rogel. "A servant
girl" was to go and inform them, and they were to go and tell King
David, for they could not risk being seen entering the city.

JW:
There's no context of identification of a 3rd party here.



HH: Or how about "the young man" who spoke to Moses. He is unidentified
in the previous context:

Num. 11:27 A young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are
prophesying in the camp.


JW:
There's no context of identification of a 3rd party here.



>>
>> JW: I'm beginning to fear that at the present rate of discussion the
>>
> Messiah
>
>> could actually arrive before we determine his/her identity.
>>
>
> HH: Are you trying to identify whether the person in Isa 7:14 is or is
> not the Messiah? I think you can have it both ways, given the structure
> of the Book of Isaiah and the possibility for a double use of the words.
> I believe Isaiah uses Immanuel to speak about near events and also about
> far events. His appearance in chapter 8 (8:8, 10), a transition chapter
> between 7 and 9, points in this direction to me, since the historical
> Immanuel is an otherwise unknown person, yet the Immanuel in chapter 8
> may be an important person, like the child in chapter 9. There is a lot
> of reuse of elements from 7:14 in 9:6, which also suggests a relation
> between the two children.
>
> JW:
> Peter, this is Exegesis.
>


HH: Joseph, this is Harold. Secondly, exegesis is the way to answer many
questions about meaning.
JW:
My comment was intended for Peter Kirk


> JW:
> If the person is known to Isaiah this Implies that Isaiah knows the name.

HH: No, it doesn't. The person can be known as an abstraction, as a
quantum of revelation from God. And your reasoning may ignore the
difference between the Hebrew use of the definite article and that of
English.


JW:
Once again you seem to me to refuse to distinguish between "probable" and
"possible".


HH: I've already said that it is not crucial which way it's translated:
"the" or "and." It's the interpretation that matters. I think it's best
that we translate it as "a," since English doesn't use the definite
article exactly like the Hebrew.

JW:
But English generally uses the definite article like Hebrew does
so shouldn't this mean we should tranlate as "the"?


> HH: I can only go by what the text says, and there is no indication in
> the text that Isaiah knew the person he was talking about or that the
> readers did. The generic use of the definite article seems to make
> assumptions about Isaiah or his audience knowing the person unnecessary.
>
> JW:
> "I can only go by what the text says". First consider what preceded.
Raymond
> Brown would
> find your "no indication" above "fantastic". Is your position now that
the
> definite article in
> 7:14 is probably used generically?
>

HH: There is nothing in the preceding context that singles out any woman
at all who is a virgin.

JW:
I suppose it was inevitable that we would finally agree.


HH:
I don't know what Raymond Brown would say, but
you aren't quoting him. What is his theory, please? I believe Isaiah was
saying to the king that the virgin will conceive. The class of virgins
will conceive. It includes at least one who will conceive a child.
Sufficient time will pass for someone who is now a virgin to conceive.
Isaiah is speaking broadly, referring to the people in Israel called
virgin. The prophecy gets more specific as it goes along but is general.
That class of people will have some of its members who conceive, and
some who bear a child, and one or more who names her son Immanuel. This
prophecy concerns the latter. One of the class now called virgin will
give this name to a son she will have, a not unnatural name to give in
Israel, God's chosen people.

JW:
None of this is indicated by the text. If you think it is you need to give
the specific text and specific reasons for your specific conclusions.



Joseph Wallack







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