Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Yohanan bin-Dawidh" <yohanan.bin.dawidh AT gmail.com>]

Shavu'a Tov Shoshanna,

I will make sure to transliterate for you next time, or merely e-mail you
the references. Our idea on what angels are, and the fact that they cease to
exist when their job is finished is similar; however, I disagree with the
concept that HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience to G-d. It
think that HaSatan is more so the anger of Y___ , which is kindled against
those who have already sinned against Y___.

The only reference to the idea that you present that I find within the
Miq'ra is in Sefer Iyyov, but even here Iyyov credits his ills, and etc. to
Y___.

Yohanan bin-Dawidh


On 4/14/07, Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net> wrote:
> Dear Yochanan, my email program is not configured to read Hebrew, so
> most of this email is lost on me, in the future, just send me the
> references to the quotes, or transliterate for me, please.
>
> So I don't know if we agree or dsagree that HaSatan is an angel who
> has a job to do, as each angel does, when their job(s) are done, they
> cease to exist, and HaSatan's job is to tempt man away from obedience
> to G-d, in order that man has an opportunity to choose G-d, and
> thereby elevate his soul.
>
> Anyway, when Mashiach comes, there will be no more need for this
> "testing" (and HaSatan will cease to exist because his job will be
> finished, that is what happens to angels), that is what the "new"
> covenant refers to.
>
> Shoshanna
>
>
> >Dear Shoshanna,
> >
> >In Sefer Bamidbar (Numbers) chapter 22 verse 22 we read
> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×ó÷…×(r)-×ê÷…×£
> >×ê÷±×ú÷¼×î÷¥×ô×ù, ×õ÷º÷¥×ô-×î×ï÷¼×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×î×ï÷º×ê,
> >×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¥×÷ƒ×ô÷…׶÷º÷µ×ë ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
> >×ë÷º÷…×ì÷º÷×(r)÷×ö÷ƒ,
> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×ú×ï÷¼; ×ï÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ê ×(r)÷¼×õ÷µ×ë
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ê÷¾×÷¼×Ý×ï÷¼, ×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×Ý÷ƒ×¢÷½×(r)÷½×ô×ï
> >×¢÷¥×û÷º×ï÷¼ which
> >suggests that  in this situation it was ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î acting as ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
> >right? Then in Sefer Shemu'el Alef (1 Samuel) 16:14 we read
> >×ï÷º×ë÷¥×¢÷¾×÷…ׁ÷º×ï÷º ×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…-×(r)÷½×¢÷½×î,
> >×û÷µ×ê÷µ× ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that clearly denotes that an "evil spirit
> >from YHWH" terrified
> >Sha'ul, and not merely "an evil spirit". Also in Sefer Divrei Hayammim
> Alef
> >(1 Chronicles) 21:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×¢÷¾×û÷¼×ì ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü,
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷×,
> >×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ô×ì, ×ú÷¥×û÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼×, ×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
> >but in the same account in Sefer
> >Shemu'el Bet (2 Samuel) 24:1 we read ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×°÷×£,
> >×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, ×ú÷…×ó÷¾×(r)×ï÷¼×,
> >×ë÷º÷ƒ×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú; ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷½×°÷× ×ê÷×-×ì÷º÷½×ï÷¥×ì
> >×ë÷º÷½×î÷×ù ×ú÷µ×ê×û÷¼×(r), ×ú÷µ×ö÷ƒ ×û÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×î
> >×ê÷×-×ô÷¥×(c)×Ç÷ƒ×(r)÷½×ê÷µ×ú
> >×ï÷ƒ×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷º×ì÷½×î , suggesting that the ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü of
> >the account in Divrei
> >Hayammim is ×ê÷…×£-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, much like it was in Sefer Bamidbar
> >chapter 22.
> >
> >All the above seem to point to ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü being a servant of
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î working on
> >His side against "evil men". So what else does the Miq'ra state about the
> >concept, or personality of ×(c)×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü?
> >
> >We read in Sefer Zekaryah chapter 3 ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷…×(r)÷ƒ×ê÷µ×Ý÷¥×ô,
> >×ê÷×-×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷… ×î÷…×õ÷º÷¼×î÷µ×ü
> >×î÷…×í÷º÷½×ì×ï÷¼×ú, ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×û÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷…×ö÷ƒ
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î; ×ï÷ƒ×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì
> >×¢÷…×ú-×ô÷ƒ×û÷¥×ô×Ý×ï÷¼,
> >×ú÷ƒ×(c)×Ç÷¥×ò÷ƒ×Ý×ï÷¼ and then   ×ï÷…×ô÷º÷¼×ê×û÷×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î
> >×ê÷×ú-×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½
> >×î÷…×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, ×ï÷ƒ×ô÷¥×í÷ƒ×¢÷…×(r) ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î ×ë÷º÷ƒ×ö÷½,
> >×î÷…×ë÷º÷¼×ó÷µ×(r) ×ë÷º÷¥×ô×(r)×ï÷º×(c)×Å÷½×ú÷½÷¥×ù; ×î÷¾×ú×ï÷¼×ê ×ñ÷×î
> >×ê×ï÷º×ì,
> >×û÷ª×¶÷º÷½×ú ×û÷µ×ê÷µ×(c)×Å which to some would appear as if
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is the enemy of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >or at least opposes Him, but in truth the answer lies in the phrase
> >×ï÷¥×ô×î×ï÷¼×(c)×Å÷ª×¢÷…,
> >×î÷½×ô÷½×î ×ú÷½×ë÷ª×(c)×Å ×ë÷º÷ƒ×í÷½×ì÷¥×ô×ù ׶×ï÷¼×ê÷¥×ô×ù;
> >×ï÷ƒ×¢÷¼×û÷µ×ì, ×ú÷¥×§÷ƒ×Ý÷µ×ô ×î÷…×û÷º÷…×ú÷ƒ×ê÷½×ö÷ƒ, which when
> >linked with the idea of ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷ƒ×î÷¥×ô ×õ÷…×ò÷º÷½×û÷µ×ê
> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷º×õ÷ƒ×ë÷×í÷×ì ×¢÷¥×ì÷º÷¥×ô×ù
> >×õ÷º÷½×ú-׶÷¥×ì÷ƒ×ß÷¼×÷µ×ô×Ý×ï÷º; ×ï÷…×Ý÷º÷½×ë÷×ú ×õ÷º÷×¢÷½×ú÷×î
> >×õ÷º÷ª×ú÷º÷½×Ý×ï÷º, ×ï÷…×¢÷¾×ï'Äç÷¼×Ý÷µ×Ý×ï÷º ×õ÷º÷½×(r)×ï÷º×ó÷…
> >×ô÷¥×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ê÷ª×Ý×ï÷º found in Sefer Yishayahu (Isaiah) chapter 64
> >verse 5 seem to
> >show us that either Israel or Yohoshu'a had sinned.
> >
> >And what about in Sefer Iyyov (Job) where it appears that ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü
> is
> >tempting Iyyov? Through out this text we see everything attributed to
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×îby Iyyov, and never to the idea of a
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü, and we see that when the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is talking
> >to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î that it is
> >made clear that the ×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü can do nothing without the
> >permission of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >right?
> >
> >I think it is self-evident in the Miq'ra that the idea of
> >×(c)÷º×Ç÷½×ò÷½×ü is one of
> >a messenger of ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, or ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î, Himself, acting as an
> >advesary to wicked
> >humans, or a test unto humans to see if they will remain loyal to
> >×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î,
> >never as an evil-being in opposition to ×ô÷ƒ×î×ï÷½×î and out to bring
> down the
> >fall of humankind, which in my humble opinion is a pagan idea.
> >
> >Yohanan bin-Dawidh×ô÷ƒ
> >_______________________________________________
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