Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Harold Holmyard <hholmyard AT ont.com>]

Dear Yonah,

> YM: If he bore their sickness, then he would have become sick himself.This is simply more 
> metaphorical language added to the mix of what we are already trying to clarify with normal 
> language. I do not know how adding metaphor to metaphor helps us understand the text. Jesus did 
> not "bear" sickness of any kind, even if he (supposedly) healed any sickness. There is 
> a difference between bearing a sickness, which means that you suffer through it, and healing a 
> sickness. Doctors do not "bear" the sickness of their patients.
>  



HH: But doctors do not heal people supernaturally, so we don't know what 
that might involve for someone who did. And the NT quotes this text of 
Jesus healing people supernaturally:

Matt. 8:16  When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were 
brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all 
the sick.
Matt. 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet 
Isaiah:  “He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.”

HH: The fact that we cannot explain exactly how someone could carry 
diseases without becoming sick does not matter because we cannot explain 
how a person can heal supernaturally either. One incident indicates that 
power went out of Jesus in a healing:

Luke 8:44 She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and 
immediately her bleeding stopped.
Luke 8:45   “Who touched me?” Jesus asked.  When they all denied it, 
Peter said,  “Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.”
Luke 8:46  But Jesus said,  “Someone touched me; I know that power has 
gone out from me.”

HH: So perhaps Jesus carried sicknesses in the sense that they drained 
him of some power.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard





> > [Steve Miller] If so, then the nations are the ones speaking. (Some problems 
> > with that.) But then you say later that Isaiah is the one speaking.>
> >    
> YM: I say that both interpretations have been offered, and this isdefinitely 
> the case.
>  
>
> > [Steve Miller] "clear indicator" & "clear ref"???? "land of the living" is used 
> > many times in Tanach, and it means just what it says. It never means the land of Israel. To be cut off from the 
> > land of the living is to die.>
> >    
> YM: Here are the references that I find (not having a proper Hebrewconcordance) for 
> "land of the living" in the Tanakh.
> "Land of the Living"ארץ חיים [[ )RC XYYM ]]Psalm 27:13; 52:7Isaiah 
> 53:8Jeremiah 11:19Ezekiel 26:20; 32:23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 32
> ארץ החיים [[ )RC HCYYM ]]Job 28:13Psalm 142:5Isaiah 38:11
> ארצות החיים [[ )RCWT HCYYM ]]Psalm 116:9
> Reading through the references, I would have to agree with you that"land of the 
> living" refers to this world (as opposed to the grave).However, the exile of the 
> people of Israel from the land wasmetaphorical death for the people, in addition to the 
> fact thatmultitudes were killed during the battles that led up to exile. To me,this is 
> a clear metaphor for Israel's exile, but I can see why itwould not be so clear to you 
> -- even though it is in line with whatthe prophets said.
>  
>
> > [Steve Miller] I agree that the speaker is Isaiah in 53:1-10, mostly speaking on behalf of Israel in 
> > general, but in 53:1 on behalf of the prophets. This is the straightforward way to understand it, 
> > and I don't know of any problem with it. But you can't have it both ways. If you say that this 
> > chapter is the gentile nations' remorse over Israel, then you must have the speaker be the gentile 
> > nations and not Isaiah.> The gentile kings cannot be the speaker. In the whole Tanach, since 
> > Israel became a nation, have the gentiles ever said anything intelligent about God? And here they 
> > know the "arm of the Lord"? They know that it "pleased Jehovah to bruise him."?
> >    
> It says that the arm of HaShem was revealed to them, and this ishighly 
> possibly refering to the goyische kings, since it is refered toin a previous 
> verse:
> The LORD will lay bare his holy armin the sight of all the nations,and all 
> the ends of the earth will seethe salvation of our God.(Isaiah 52:10, NIV)
> In fact, the entire chapter is talking about Israel's captivity. Ithink the 
> message is blatantly clear from the context. Chapter 52talks about Israel's 
> captivity; 53 talks about their treatment andcomportment; and 54 talks about 
> their return from this captivity. (Irealize that the references go 
> back-and-forth within the section, butthis is the basic thrust of the text.)
> I still am puzzled by the confusion that this text causes when iftaken in 
> context it makes perfect sense.
> שלוםYonah
> -- Yonah Mishael ben AvrahamJoplin, 
> MOyonahmishael AT gmail.com_______________________________________________b-hebrew
>  mailing 
> listb-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
> .
>
>