Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yonah Mishael Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:12 PM
> 
> One of the phrases that sticks out to me in Isaiah 53 is ידוע חלי in
> verse 3. חולי means "sickness," just as we say that someone is חולה
> "sick." When was Jesus ever sick so that he should be "familiar with
> sickness"? There are plenty of things in the text that do not support
> the Christian notion of Jesus.

[Steve Miller] As Peter already pointed out, Jesus knew sickness because He 
spent time with the sick and bore their sicknesses. Also, the word for 
sickness can refer to physical wounds from beating (Prov23:35;2Kg 1:2;8:29).
> 
> This text is a metaphor for the nations looking at Israel (or at least
> at the righteous remnant of Israel) and being surprised at how they
> were mistreated in their innocence. 

[Steve Miller] If so, then the nations are the ones speaking. (Some problems 
with that.) But then you say later that Isaiah is the one speaking.

>A clear indicator of this comes in
> verse 8:
> 
> מעצר וממשפט לקח    ואת דורו מי ישוחח
> כי נגזר מארץ חיים    מפשע עמי נגע למו
> 
> It says that he was "cut off from the land of the living," which is a
> clear reference to being forced out of the land of promise — Erets
> Yisra'el.

 [Steve Miller] "clear indicator" & "clear ref"???? "land of the living" is 
used many times in Tanach, and it means just what it says. It never means the 
land of Israel. To be cut off from the land of the living is to die. 

> 
> The victim here is that righteous remnant that has always existed in
> Israel and who did not deserve to be forced into exile, but they
> suffered because of the sin of others — not in atonement for it, but
> because they were there. The speaker is either Isaiah speaking on
> behalf of the nation of Israel in general, or it is the kings of the
> nations (gentile kings) who are astonished at the transformation they
> see in Israel as he goes from despised to "high, lifted up, and
> exalted exceedingly" (רום ונישא וגבהּ מאוד).

[Steve Miller] I agree that the speaker is Isaiah in 53:1-10, mostly speaking 
on behalf of Israel in general, but in 53:1 on behalf of the prophets. This 
is the straightforward way to understand it, and I don't know of any problem 
with it. But you can't have it both ways. If you say that this chapter is the 
gentile nations' remorse over Israel, then you must have the speaker be the 
gentile nations and not Isaiah. 
The gentile kings cannot be the speaker. In the whole Tanach, since Israel 
became a nation, have the gentiles ever said anything intelligent about God? 
And here they know the "arm of the Lord"? They know that it "pleased Jehovah 
to bruise him."?
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceinwilderness.info
> 
> This seems to be the natural reading, IMHO.
> 
> Yonah
> 
> On 8/31/06, Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net> wrote:
> > Dear Harold
> >
> > I don't have time today to look up every single verse you send.  They
> > are only translations and many translations have an agenda.
> >
> > A covenant cannot be a person.  A person cannot be a covenant.  A
> > covenant is an agreement, a promise, a mutual "contract".
> >
> > Isaiah 49: 8  refers to THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL  "...In a time of favor
> > I will answer you, and on a day of salvation I assist you. I will
> > protect you, and I will make YOU A PEOPLE OF THE COVENANT, to restore
> > the land and to cause you to inherit desolate heritages"
> >
> > Messianic prophecy concerning redemption of AM YISRAEL, but it is not
> > Isaiah who is doing it.
> >
> > Isaiah 42  1-5   G-d promises to send Mashiach, but He doesn't use
> > the word Mashiach - as Yigal has pointed out.
> >
> > Isaiah 53  1-3   This is a prophecy foretelling what the nations and
> > their kings will exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvination.
> > The "victim" here is AM YISRAEL.    There is no context of Mashiach
> > here that suddenly you say this is referring to a person.
> >
> > Previously  52:13  Same thing, the object is AM YISRAEL - referred to
> > by G-d as His "servant"
> >
> > If you want to read into the text, a pre-conceived concept, that is
> > your prerogative.  But you have to look more carefully at the
> > contexts in the text, ie when the prophet (and G-d) refer to prophet,
> > Israel, G-d and Mashiach.
> >
> > And I can't spend hours on this today.
> >
> > Shoshanna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Shoshanna,
> >
> > >Isaiah 49: 1-5    As he prepares to prophesy regarding many
> > >countries, Isaiah stresses that G-d selected him for this purpose -
> > >even from the womb.
> > >
> > >Verse 6 does not refer to Mashiach, because Mashiach does not bring
> > >salvation to "the ends of the earth".  Mashiach brings salvation to
> > >Israel, and AS A BY-PRODUCT, the rest of the world will know G-d and
> > >will worship G-d - as they were commanded  (7 Noahide laws).
> > >
> >
> > HH: It is the same thing. A prophet does not have to mention every
> > fact each time he brings up a subject. Isaiah talks about the
> > messianic era in his prophecies relating to the servant and clearly
> > discusses the salvation of Israel. For example, the last part of
> > Isaiah 52 talks about the servant, but the first part talks about the
> > salvation of Israel:
> >
> > Is. 52:1 Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on
> > your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The
> > uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.
> > Is. 52:2 Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, O Jerusalem.
> > Free yourself from the chains on your neck, O captive Daughter of
> > Zion.
> > Is. 52:3 For this is what the LORD says: ìYou were sold for nothing,
> > and without money you will be redeemed.î
> >
> > >"Light for the nations" is what Israel is called.
> > >
> >
> > HH: The person is a covenant to the people of Israel. It is the same
> > person in Isaiah 49 as in Isaiah 42.
> >
> > Is. 42:6 ìI, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take
> > hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant
> > for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
> >
> > Is. 49:8 This is what the LORD says: ìIn the time of my favor I will
> > answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep
> > you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the
> > land and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
> >
> >
> > >Most commentaries agree that Verse 7  begins a new prophecy:  When
> > >G-d redeems Israel, which has been 'despised...loathed...a servant,"
> > >its disgrace will be ended and it will be honored by kings and
> > >rulers, who will recognize that redemption came about "because of
> > >Hashem".  Ibn Ezra says that the prophet is still speaking about
> > >himself and the contempt with which his prophecies have been treated.
> > >
> >
> >
> > HH: It is a person, the same person as in Isaiah 52-53. Compare the
> > two passages:
> >
> > Is. 49:7 This is what the LORD says ó the Redeemer and Holy One of
> > Israel ó to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the
> > servant of rulers: ìKings will see you and rise up, princes will see
> > and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of
> > Israel, who has chosen you.î
> >
> > Is. 52:13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and
> > lifted up and highly exalted.
> > Is. 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him ó his
> > appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form
> > marred beyond human likeness ó
> > Is. 52:15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their
> > mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see,
> > and what they have not heard, they will understand.
> >
> > Is. 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and
> > familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he
> > was despised, and we esteemed him not.
> > Is. 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,
> > yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
> >
> > HH: This person is rejected by Israel at first. Note that Isaiah says
> > "we" esteemed him not, referring to Israel not esteeming him.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Harold Holmyard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >HH: The entire section shows that the things this person does are far
> > >too great for Isaiah, as great a prophet as Isaiah was:
> > >
> > >Is. 49:1 è Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations:
> > >Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention
> > >of my name.
> > >Is. 49:2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his
> > >hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in
> his
> > >quiver.
> > >Is. 49:3 He said to me, ÏYou are my servant, Israel, in whom I will
> > >display my splendor.Ó
> > >Is. 49:4 But I said, ÏI have labored to no purpose; I have spent my
> > >strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORDÌs
> > >hand, and my reward is with my God.Ó
> > >Is. 49:5 And now the LORD says Û he who formed me in the womb to be his
> > >servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I
> > >am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength Û
> > >Is. 49:6 he says: ÏIt is too small a thing for you to be my servant to
> > >restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
> > >I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my
> > >salvation to the ends of the earth.Ó
> > >Is. 49:7 This is what the LORD says Û the Redeemer and Holy One of
> > >Israel Û to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the
> > >servant of rulers: ÏKings will see you and rise up, princes will see
> and
> > >bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel,
> > >who has chosen you.Ó
> > >Is. 49:8 è This is what the LORD says: ÏIn the time of my favor I will
> > >answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep
> you
> > >and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land
> > >and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
> > >Is. 49:9 to say to the captives, ÎCome out,Ì and to those in darkness,
> > >ÎBe free!Ì ÏThey will feed beside the roads and find pasture on every
> > >barren hill.
> > >Is. 49:10 They will neither hunger nor thirst, nor will the desert heat
> > >or the sun beat upon them. He who has compassion on them will guide
> them
> > >and lead them beside springs of water.
> > >Is. 49:11 I will turn all my mountains into roads, and my highways will
> > >be raised up.
> > >Is. 49:12 See, they will come from afar Û some from the north, some
> from
> > >the west, some from the region of Aswan.Ó
> > >
> > >Yours,
> > >Harold Holmyard
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> > >
> >
> >
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> 
> --
> Yonah Mishael ben Avraham
> Joplin, MO
> yonahmishael AT gmail.com
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