Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

It is 4q225  Fragment 2 Col 1.  Here is a verse:

And a son of love was born to Abraham and he named him Isaac.  Now the Prince 
of Malevolence (Mastemah) cam to God and brought his animosity to bear 
against Abraham because of Isaac.  And God said to Abraham, "Take your son, 
Isaac, your only one whom you love & offer him up to me as a burnt offering 
upon one of the high mountains which I will point out to you....

--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: Shoshanna Walker <rosewalk AT concentric.net> 

> Thank you. Where in the Dead Sea Scrolls? 
> 
> I have found this: 
> 
> Mastema 
> 
> by Micha F. Lindemans 
> The name of the devil in the Book of Jubilees. According to this 
> book, Mastema is the chief of the evil spirits who tested Abraham and 
> killed the first-born of the Egyptians. 
> 
> Also, apparently this, not Tanach, is where the idea of fallen angels 
> appears 
> 
> 
> So is this the transition of how just one of G-d's angels, Satan, 
> "became" the devil - (an idea that's also not in the Torah)? 
> 
> Shoshanna 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Shoshanna, 
> 
> Mastemah(Prince of Malevolence) is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, I 
> love that name that is how I remembered him. 4Q225 
> 
> And a son of love was born to Abraham and he named him Isaac. Now 
> the Prince of Malevolence (Mastemah) came to God and brought his 
> animosity to bear against Abraham because of Isaac.... 
> 
> -- 
> Kelton Graham 
> KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net 
> 
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> From: Shoshanna Walker 
> 
> > Harold I am getting tired of all this - and it's only Monday. 
> > 
> > It doesn't matter (to me) that the first Christians were Jews if they 
> > either misunderstood Torah, or didn't learn it, or started making up 
> > their own beliefs, nor if you quote sources that are not Torah. 
> > 
> > There is not one example in the Jewish scriptures where any angel, 
> > Satan included, opposes God's will, nor of a fiction named Mastema, 
> > who allegedly induced God to test Abraham through the sacrifice of 
> > Isaac. 
> > 
> > You are right that his job is that of tempter - he tempts mankind 
> > away from obedience to G-d, so that when they choose G-d over Satan, 
> > they are thereby elevated - and that he was the one who tempted Chava. 
> > 
> > But some day we will all be on an elevated spiritual level, and his 
> > job will be over. 
> > 
> > If you are interested in a Jewish perspective, see 
> > http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html 
> > 
> > Shoshanna 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >"Even if an angel of G-d did give the vision to Daniel, it still came 
> > >from G-d" Obviously everything comes from G-d. But if it came from 
> > >an intermediary, it didn't come directly from G-d. And what do you 
> > >mean, that "otherwise the vision would be from an angel of Satan"? 
> > >There is only G-d, and Satan is only another angel, Satan doesn't 
> > >have angels working under him. There are many many angels, an angel 
> > >is a servant of G-d, and exists only to do a particular job, when its 
> > >job is done, it ceases to exist - even Satan will no longer have a 
> > >job to do one day. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > HH: Have you ever read the Apocryphra? It reveals a Jewish concept of 
> > Satan that is like the Christian view of Satan, which of course was a 
> > Jewish view because the first Christians were all Jews. Here is 
> > something from the Jewish Encyclopedia on the view of Satan in the 
> > Apocrypha: 
> > http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S 
> > 
> > The evolution of the theory of Satan keeps pace with the development of 
> > Jewish angelology and demonology. In Wisdom ii. 24 he is represented, 
> > with reference to Gen. iii., as the author of all evil, who brought 
> > death into the world; he is apparently mentioned also in Ecclus. 
> > (Sirach) xxi. 27, and the fact that his name does not occur in Daniel is 
> > doubtless due merely to chance. Satan was the seducer and the paramour 
> > of Eve, and was hurled from heaven together with other angels because of 
> > his iniquity (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxix. 4 et seq.). Since that time 
> > he has been called "Satan," although previously he had been termed 
> > "Satanel" (ib. xxxi. 3 et seq.). The doctrine of the fall of Satan, as 
> > well as of the fall of the angels, is found also in Babylonia (Schrader, 
> > l.c. p. 464), and is mentioned several times in the New Testament. Satan 
> > rules over an entire host of angels (Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2; Vita 
> > Adæ et Evæ, xvi.). Mastema, who induced God to test Abraham through the 
> > sacrifice of Isaac, is identical with Satan in both name and nature 
> > (Book of Jubilees, xvii. 18), and the Asmodeus of the Book of Tobit is 
> > likewise to be identified with him, especially in view of his 
> > licentiousness. As the lord of satans he not infrequently bears the 
> > special name Samael. It is difficult to identify Satan in any other 
> > passages of the Apocrypha, since the originals in which his name 
> > occurred have been lost, and the translations employ various 
> > equivalents. An "argumentum a silentio" can not, therefore, be adduced 
> > as proof that concepts of Satan were not wide-spread; but it must rather 
> > be assumed that reference to him and his realm is implied in the mention 
> > of evil spirits of every sort (comp. Demonology, and Kautzsch, 
> > "Apokryphen," Index). 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > Yours, 
> > Harold Holmyard 
> > _______________________________________________ 
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> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew 
> > 
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>From smille10 AT sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  5 22:28:51 2006
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
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> From: Lisbeth S. Fried Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:33 PM
>=20
> How does it make clear that it is not the high priest?

[Steve Miller] Because nageed refers to kings, not priests. The high =
priest
is called nageed only as ruler over specific things, i.e. over certain
Levites, or over the house of God. He is never called an unqualified =
nageed.
Just as I am ruler over my house and over a few people at work, but I =
would
not be called a ruler.

> That is who the leader was in the second temple period.
[Steve Miller] He may have been acting as the leader, as Jehoida did, =
but he
was not anointed to be the leader. If he was high priest, he was =
anointed to
be high priest.

> How does the time constraint not work?=20
[Steve Miller] He needed to appear either 7 weeks (49 years) or 62 weeks
(434 years) or 69 weeks (483 years) after the word to restore and =
rebuild
Jerusalem.
-Steve Miller
Detroit
www.voiceinwilderness.info

>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Miller [mailto:smille10 AT sbcglobal.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:45 PM
> > To: 'Lisbeth S. Fried'; 'B-Hebrew'
> > Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> >
> > "maschiach" can refer to a high priest, but "maschiach nageed" makes =
it
> > clear that this is not a Levitical priest. Also, the time constraint
> does
> > not work as pointed out by Harold.
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> > > bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lisbeth S. Fried
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:26 PM
> > > To: 'B-Hebrew'
> > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 9:25
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > > You're forgetting the high priest, always the anointed leader of =
his
> > > people.
> > > (e.g. Lev. 8:12).
> > > It is probably Onias III or Simon II (the one described in Ben =
Sira).
> > > Simon
> > > II is credited with restoring Jerusalem. Onias III is cut off and =
has
> > > nothing.
> > > The troops destroying the sanctuary are those of Antiochus IV.
> > > Liz Fried
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
> > > > bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Miller
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:15 PM
> > > > To: 'Yonah Mishael'; 'B-Hebrew'
> > > > Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 11:22
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Yonah Mishael Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006
> > > > >
> > > > > Translating =F0=E2=E9=E3 as "prince" has also led to =
Christians
> translating
> > > > > 9:25 of Daniel as "Messiah the Prince," although =EE=F9=E9=E7 =
=F0=E2=E9=E3 would
> maybe
> > > > > better be understood as "an anointed ruler" (indefinite) or =
"an
> > > > > exalted anointed one" (if =F0=E2=E9=E3 be understood as the =
adjective
> > > > > modifying =EE=F9=E9=E7).
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you make of this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yonah
> > > > >
> > > > Yes, Yonah, I agree with you on the meaning of nageed as ruler. =
In
> Dan.
> > > > 9:25, who could "mashiach nageed" refer to? The words "mashiach
> nageed"
> > > > could refer to Cyrus, or an anointed leader of Israel, or to the
> > > promised
> > > > Messiah. The verse says that "mashiach nageed" is to come either =
49
> yrs
> > > or
> > > > 693 years after the word to restore and build Jerusalem. This
> couldn't
> > > be
> > > > Cyrus because the word to restore and build Jerusalem was given =
by
> Cyrus
> > > > (and later Persian kings). Neither was there an outstanding =
anointed
> > > ruler
> > > > of Israel meeting this time criteria. Thus "maschiach nageed" in
> > > Dan.9:25
> > > > must mean the Messiah.
> > > > -Steve Miller
> > > > Detroit
> > > > www.voiceinwilderness.info