Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>]

Peter Kirk wrote:

> On 23/06/2006 21:11, Brak wrote:
>  
>
> > ...
> > So just because you have Jesus debate with other Pharisees doesn't mean 
> > that Jesus rejected the Oral Law, nor does it mean that Jesus wasn't a 
> > Pharisee Himself. ...
> >    
>
> Indeed. But if you read the gospels, which are (as James pointed out) 
> more or less the only records we have of the historical Jesus, we find 
> that Jesus rarely debated with the Pharisees, but more frequently he 
> simply condemned them - and vice versa. For example, see the repeated 
> "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!" of 
> Matthew 23. Note that he doesn't say "Pharisees of that other school", 
> he addresses all Pharisees, and all teachers of the law. It is clear 
> that he is not counting himself as one of them, but as an outsider 
> challenging all of them. That doesn't mean that he disagreed with all of 
> them on every point. But it does make it impossible to claim that Jesus 
> was himself a Pharisee.
>
>  
Its called intra-sect criticism, aka fighting amongst yourselves. I am a 
Seventh-day Adventist Christian. Many times I talk about Christians 
doing things that they shouldn't do, and even Seventh-day Adventist 
doing things that they shouldn't do. Since I criticized other Christians 
does that make me not a Christian? Since I criticized other Seventh-day 
Adventist does that make me not a Seventh-day Adventist?
Of course I am still both a Christian and a Seventh-day adventist even 
though I have criticized both. Hence Jesus can be a Pharisee and 
criticize them at the same time. So it is not an impossibility for Jesus 
to be a Pharisee, in fact when all the info is laid out it points to Him 
being one.

> Earlier you mentioned verses 2-3 of the same chapter, where Jesus tells 
> people to be careful to do everything that these same teachers of the 
> law and Pharisees tell them to do; but in the light of what follows, 
> that can only be understood as ironic!
>
>  
Not really ironic, but rather a grave warning to those who teach/preach 
one thing, and then turn around and do the opposite. Jesus was 
criticizing that they weren't practicing what they preached. How they 
gave a good talk, but not a good walk. How they taught and instructed 
the people to faithfully observe the Law (both written and oral) but 
ignored to do it themselves.

I think, if you wish, we should continue this discussion of-board, as 
all this Jesus talk really has nothing to do with the forum - at least 
none that I can see.

But I am enjoying our discussion. So please do replay back to me. In 
fact we can CC all those interested in this current thread.


B"H
John Steven