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  • From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Deuteronomy 20:19 )DM
  • Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:52:45 +0000

Karl:Thanks for the reference. I have no idea who Bill T. Arnold
& John H. Choi are, so I'll go back and look directly at the
text.

Response: No problem, it just came out in 2003. So it is fairly recent, but
it has plenty of support. i.e Bruce Waltke and the like. The two authors are
out in Asbury Theological Seminary.
-------------------------------------


Karl:The 2 Kings 18:34 (and its parallel passage in Isaiah
36:19) have NCL consistently in the Hiphil in the verses
both preceding and following the verse in question.
Further, in these verses, the middle yod for the Hiphil is
present. Therefore, the hey after the KY in these verses is
a sign of the Hiphil, not that of the interrogative prefix. The
KY doesn't introduce an interrogative in these verses, for
it is already under the interrogative that opens the verse.

Response: Yes, I see what you are saying, but I think (if I am reading them
correctly) that when KIY is used in this manner, the H particle interrogative
is not necessary. I think they are arguing that the KIY itself sometimes
functions to introduce the interrogative clause without the H particle. So
the H here is referring to the hiphil.

--------------------------------------------------

Karl: Every time that I know of where the KY introduces an
interrogative, the hey prefix precedes the KY, e.g. Genesis
27:36 "and he said, Is not his name called Crooked and
he has dealt crookedly with me these two times? ..." or
2 Samuel 9:1 "and David said, Is there anyone still
remaining from Saul's house ..." The only possible
exception that I know of is this verse in Deuteronomy,
where its context indicates that it should be a verb
(Hiphil?) not a noun.

Response: Yes, I see your point, but I think there may be some validity to
what they are arguing. The give about 14 different uses of KIY, and this of
course is the last use, and these are the only two verses they mention.

Karl:Are there any other examples where an interrogative hey
follows a KY in Tanakh?

Response: I believed that Harold supplied some for you. Hope this helps.

Karl W. Randolph.


--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
>From k0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk Thu Nov 17 13:13:37 2005
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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] NWT's approach of consistent translation
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Schmuel" <schmuel AT nyc.rr.com>,
"b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] NWT's approach of consistent translation
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Everything

The=20vast=20majority=20of=20renderings=20of=20Jehovah=20in=20the=20NWT=20=
NT=20are=20as=20a=20
result=20of=20the=20fact=20that=20the=20text=20is=20quoting=20directly=20f=
rom=20the=20OT=20
where=20cross=20reference=20shows=20that=20YHWH=20was=20clearly=20there.

As=20Jesus=20is=20depicted=20as=20a=20person=20who=20rejected=20the=20supe=
rstitions=20of
men=20I=20find=20it=20hard=20to=20believe=20that=20Jesus=20would=20not=20h=
ave=20used=20the=20
name=20when=20quoting=20from=20passages=20that=20contained=20it.

Also=20fragments=20of=20the=20LXX=20show=20that=20it=20was=20commonly=20pr=
actised=20to=20
transliterate=20the=20name=20YHWH=20into=20the=20text=20up=20until=20some=20=
revolutionary=20
point=20in=20time.=20I=20find=20it=20highly=20likely=20that=20at=20some=20=
point=20in=20time=20the=20
use=20of=20the=20name=20YHWH=20was=20banned=20and=20kurios=20was=20used=20=
as=20a=20subsititute=20
in=20both=20the=20NT=20and=20the=20LXX.

However,=20there=20are=20examples=20of=20inconsistency=20with=20the=20NWT=20=
NT=20and=20Matthew=205:3
which=20is=20a=20highly=20idomatic=20translation=20with=20the=20obvious=20=
intention=20of=20
enforcing=20a=20particular=20doctrine.

-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org=20on=20behalf=20of=20Schmuel
Sent:=20Thu=2011/17/2005=2011:41=20AM
To:=20b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org
Subject:=20[b-hebrew]=20=20NWT's=20approach=20of=20consistent=20translatio=
n
=20
Hi=20Folks,

Subject=20was:=20Re:=20[b-hebrew]=20NIV=20v'=20NWT=20translation=20policy

Read,=20James=20C=20wrote:
>the=20NWT's=20approach=20of=20consistent=20translation=20

It=20is=20very=20hard=20to=20take=20any=20NWT=20claim=20of=20"consistent=20=
translation"=20seriously
knowing=20that=20their=20major=20textual=20redaction=20('Jehovah'=20in=20t=
he=20New=20Testament)
is=20not=20only=20done=20without=20any=20textual=20support,=20but=20is=20d=
one=20in=20a=20completely
inconsistent=20manner.=20=20The=20word=20Jehovah=20is=20put=20in=20for=20k=
urios=20when=20it=20is=20
doctrinally=20helpful,=20and=20simply=20omitted=20when=20it=20is=20not=20c=
onsidered=20doctrinally
beneficial.

To=20gerry-rig=20like=20that=20in=20the=20midst=20of=20an=20essentially=20=
unsupportable=20textual=20redaction=20
is=20=20as=20inconsistent=20as=20any=20translation=20can=20be.

Pardon=20me=20for=20responding=20with=20a=20question=20that=20is=20not=20e=
xactly=20b-hebrew,=20
but=20is=20very=20consequent=20to=20the=20claim=20above.

Shalom,
Steven=20Avery
Queens,=20NY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic


_______________________________________________
b-hebrew=20mailing=20list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.


This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.
>From stoneyb AT touchwood.net Thu Nov 17 13:21:10 2005
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Every Bible translation has its plusses and minuses, and phrases that
are favored or disfavored by somebody. But it is another thing to
impute ulterior, unscholarly, or sectarian motives to a translation
without knowing all the facts or doing honest research, or by relying on
innuendo, bias, and speculation.



I see I wrote too quickly and expressed myself badly. I imputed no
"ulterior, unscholarly, or sectarian" motive to the translator. My
criticism of the translation - which is entirely literary - is that the
inverted construction is unidiomatic and the use of "indefinite" has in
this context unhappy connotations. My "guess" was in fact intended to
suggest a reason why the translator might (consciously or unconsciously)
have gone in this direction - a reason I regard as entirely valid and
part of the art of translation. My second paragraph further qualified my
objection by anticipating Rolf Furuli's cogent observation that
non-idiomatic usages in Biblical translation very often become idiomatic
if the translation is widely read.



Stoney breyer

Writer/Touchwood, Inc.









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