Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

Karl:Thanks for the reference. I have no idea who Bill T. Arnold 
& John H. Choi are, so I'll go back and look directly at the 
text.

Response: No problem, it just came out in 2003.  So it is fairly recent, but 
it has plenty of support. i.e Bruce Waltke and the like.  The two authors are 
out in Asbury Theological Seminary.
-------------------------------------


Karl:The 2 Kings 18:34 (and its parallel passage in Isaiah 
36:19) have NCL consistently in the Hiphil in the verses 
both preceding and following the verse in question. 
Further, in these verses, the middle yod for the Hiphil is 
present. Therefore, the hey after the KY in these verses is 
a sign of the Hiphil, not that of the interrogative prefix. The 
KY doesn't introduce an interrogative in these verses, for 
it is already under the interrogative that opens the verse.

Response:  Yes, I see what you are saying, but I think (if I am reading them 
correctly) that when KIY is used in this manner, the H particle interrogative 
is not necessary.  I think they are arguing that the KIY itself sometimes 
functions to introduce the interrogative clause without the H particle.  So 
the H here is referring to the hiphil.

--------------------------------------------------

Karl: Every time that I know of where the KY introduces an 
interrogative, the hey prefix precedes the KY, e.g. Genesis 
27:36 "and he said, Is not his name called Crooked and 
he has dealt crookedly with me these two times? ..." or 
2 Samuel 9:1 "and David said, Is there anyone still 
remaining from Saul's house ..." The only possible 
exception that I know of is this verse in Deuteronomy, 
where its context indicates that it should be a verb 
(Hiphil?) not a noun.

Response:  Yes, I see your point, but I think there may be some validity to 
what they are arguing.  The give about 14 different uses of KIY, and this of 
course is the last use, and these are the only two verses they mention.

Karl:Are there any other examples where an interrogative hey 
follows a KY in Tanakh?

Response: I believed that Harold supplied some for you.  Hope this helps.

Karl W. Randolph.


--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew]  NWT's approach of consistent translation
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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        "b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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Everything

The=20vast=20majority=20of=20renderings=20of=20Jehovah=20in=20the=20NWT=20=
NT=20are=20as=20a=20
result=20of=20the=20fact=20that=20the=20text=20is=20quoting=20directly=20f=
rom=20the=20OT=20
where=20cross=20reference=20shows=20that=20YHWH=20was=20clearly=20there.

As=20Jesus=20is=20depicted=20as=20a=20person=20who=20rejected=20the=20supe=
rstitions=20of
men=20I=20find=20it=20hard=20to=20believe=20that=20Jesus=20would=20not=20h=
ave=20used=20the=20
name=20when=20quoting=20from=20passages=20that=20contained=20it.

Also=20fragments=20of=20the=20LXX=20show=20that=20it=20was=20commonly=20pr=
actised=20to=20
transliterate=20the=20name=20YHWH=20into=20the=20text=20up=20until=20some=20=
revolutionary=20
point=20in=20time.=20I=20find=20it=20highly=20likely=20that=20at=20some=20=
point=20in=20time=20the=20
use=20of=20the=20name=20YHWH=20was=20banned=20and=20kurios=20was=20used=20=
as=20a=20subsititute=20
in=20both=20the=20NT=20and=20the=20LXX.

However,=20there=20are=20examples=20of=20inconsistency=20with=20the=20NWT=20=
NT=20and=20Matthew=205:3
which=20is=20a=20highly=20idomatic=20translation=20with=20the=20obvious=20=
intention=20of=20
enforcing=20a=20particular=20doctrine.

-----Original=20Message-----
From:=20b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org=20on=20behalf=20of=20Schmuel
Sent:=20Thu=2011/17/2005=2011:41=20AM
To:=20b-hebrew-lists.ibiblio.org
Subject:=20[b-hebrew]=20=20NWT's=20approach=20of=20consistent=20translatio=
n
=20
Hi=20Folks,

Subject=20was:=20Re:=20[b-hebrew]=20NIV=20v'=20NWT=20translation=20policy

Read,=20James=20C=20wrote:
>the=20NWT's=20approach=20of=20consistent=20translation=20

It=20is=20very=20hard=20to=20take=20any=20NWT=20claim=20of=20"consistent=20=
translation"=20seriously
knowing=20that=20their=20major=20textual=20redaction=20('Jehovah'=20in=20t=
he=20New=20Testament)
is=20not=20only=20done=20without=20any=20textual=20support,=20but=20is=20d=
one=20in=20a=20completely
inconsistent=20manner.=20=20The=20word=20Jehovah=20is=20put=20in=20for=20k=
urios=20when=20it=20is=20
doctrinally=20helpful,=20and=20simply=20omitted=20when=20it=20is=20not=20c=
onsidered=20doctrinally
beneficial.

To=20gerry-rig=20like=20that=20in=20the=20midst=20of=20an=20essentially=20=
unsupportable=20textual=20redaction=20
is=20=20as=20inconsistent=20as=20any=20translation=20can=20be.

Pardon=20me=20for=20responding=20with=20a=20question=20that=20is=20not=20e=
xactly=20b-hebrew,=20
but=20is=20very=20consequent=20to=20the=20claim=20above.

Shalom,
Steven=20Avery
Queens,=20NY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic


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This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
Security=20System.


This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20for=20all=20viruses=20by=20the=20Mes=
sageLabs=20Email
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>From stoneyb AT touchwood.net  Thu Nov 17 13:21:10 2005
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Every Bible translation has its plusses and minuses, and phrases that
are favored or disfavored by somebody.  But it is another thing to
impute ulterior, unscholarly, or sectarian motives to a translation
without knowing all the facts or doing honest research, or by relying on
innuendo, bias, and speculation.

 

I see I wrote too quickly and expressed myself badly. I imputed no
"ulterior, unscholarly, or sectarian" motive to the translator. My
criticism of the translation - which is entirely literary - is that the
inverted construction is unidiomatic and the use of "indefinite" has in
this context unhappy connotations. My "guess" was in fact intended to
suggest a reason why the translator might (consciously or unconsciously)
have gone in this direction - a reason I regard as entirely valid and
part of the art of translation. My second paragraph further qualified my
objection by anticipating Rolf Furuli's cogent observation that
non-idiomatic usages in Biblical translation very often become idiomatic
if the translation is widely read.

 

Stoney breyer

Writer/Touchwood, Inc.