Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

There seem to be two wedding ceremonies in the torah.

1)Adam & Eve
2)Isaac & Rebekah

Adam & Eve's wedding ceremony consists of God saying 'Wake up Adam. I've 
made you a woman. Have fun.'

Isaac & Rebekah's wedding consists of Isaac taking her into his Mum's tent 
and 'loving' her.

All modern day formal ceremonies seem to be an attempt to formalise these 
events and for the most part take their customs from extra-biblical religions 
and/or cultures. 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yigal Levin
Sent: Fri 10/21/2005 12:27 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Leviral marriage
 
>From a purely semantic point of view, biblical hebrew does not have separate 
words for "wife" and "woman". Both are "ishah". We really don't know what 
kind of "wedding" ceremony existed in biblical Israel. If an ishah (wonam) 
"was a man's", she was his ishah (wife).

Yigal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>; <bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz>; 
<b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Leviral marriage


>
> On rereading my post I realised that I should correct myself.
>
>>Yah had expressed quite clearly that taking another man's wife was an
>>immoral act.
>
> I would probably have been more faithful to the text by saying that Yah
> had quite clearly expressed that it was immoral to take another man's
> woman.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Read, James C
> Sent: Thu 10/20/2005 11:08 PM
> To: bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Leviral marriage
>
> Bill,
>
> Your reasoning was very followable up until this point.
>
>>David's half dozen doesn't raise any moral qualms except the acquistion
>>of Bathsheba. But even here Nathan the Prophet was not sent
>>to David until after Uriah was dead. If God had sent Nathan after David
>>had shagged Bathsheba he (God) could have saved Uriah's life.
>
> Are you suggesting that Yah was only upset with David for having Uriah
> bumped off and not for the original doing the dirty on him with his wife?
>
> This would seem to contradict the context as Nathan tells a story about
> a man with many who steals from a man with only one. This would seem to
> indicate that Uriah's objective was to make David understand the gravity
> of his mistake regarding the stealing of Uriah's wife. Plus the greater
> context of the law and more specifically of the ten words shows that
> Yah had expressed quite clearly that taking another man's wife was an
> immoral act.
>
>
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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This is not entirely true. In both Italian and Spanish you can learn 
the rules of pronunciation and apply them to every single word in the 
language (except perhaps borrowed words). My Italian and Spanish students 
often remark how strange the English language is in that it does not have 
a trustworthy spelling system. However, this is only because English spelling 
is the product of many conquests.
I think you will find that most languages with an alphabet have a far more 
logical system of pronunciation than English does.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Kevin Riley
Sent: Fri 10/21/2005 2:10 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Initial "Beged Kefet" consonants always have a...
 
 You need to distinguish between phonetic change and phonemic change.  The
changes to Greek consonants was almost entirely phonetic, not phonemic.  The
change of 'beta' to veta', etc, did not require any change in spelling as
the phonemic system of Greek remained intact.  That sort of change has to be
found in transliterations because the native orthography will never record
it.  As for languages 'spelled phonetically' - I still do not find there is
much evidence for such languages.  And a conservative inertia operates in
all languages to prevent changes in spelling.  Therefore spelling changes
are unlikely to ever reflect what is happening, but only what has already
happened.  The best internal evidence for sound change occurs when two or
more sounds converge as you get confusion between their representations in
spelling.  The confusion found in Greek manuscripts with H, EI and I is a
good indication that all three have the same pronunciation.  I would have
thought that non-native speakers would provide good evidence as they are
less likely to know the spelling conventions.  We should not underestimate
the influence the schools had in promoting a spelling tradition at all times
through history.  It is actually very rare to find a language where words
are spelt exactly as they are pronounced for any length of time.  It is
usually a transition time between one convention and another.  Only when the
transition is made can you see how many changes have been made in the
intervening years, and even then the new convention is almost always
conservative and does not represent the language exactly as it is spoken.  I
suspect that the desire for a phonetic writing system is pretty much a
modern obsession that the ancients do not appear to have shared.  I know you
disagree, but if you read the accounts of writing systems that could act as
models for either Hebrew of Greek, [Sumerian, Akkadian, Eblaite, Egyptian,
Minoan, etc ] phonetic representation is not one of their characteristics.

Kevin Riley
  
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Karl Randolph
Date: 10/21/05 02:27:34
 
Dear Peter:
 
When looking back at the other URLs that you provided, I
noticed that the one that went into the most detail admitted
that much, if not most, of the evidence that Buth and others
like him depend on are from people who were not native
speakers of Greek and dialectal differences. Those are
exactly the types of data that I consider invalid as
evidences for his theory.
 
Yet he has the hubris to announce that he can determine
exactly what the pronunciations were at each time period.
 
But for me the biggest reason I questioned his
conclusions is based on a class I had concerning history
of languages, how they change and what evidences do
we have of their changes. The last one is the stickiest one,
in that changes can occur under the radar if spelling is
frozen. Where spelling is not frozen and the language is
spelled phonetically, it is rare for a letter, particularly a
consonant, to change pronunciation. But when the
spelling is frozen, then all bets are off.
 
When was Greek spelling frozen?
 
Because of differences of spelling between classical
Greek and koiné, not counting foreign accented and
dialectal differences, it appears that the spelling was
frozen after koiné. Without being an expert in Greek but
just looking at history, the period most likely to be when
Greek spelling was frozen is the Byzantine period.
 
In closing, he may be right, and I wrong, but I question his
claims because of data I have from other sources. He
needs to show that spellings were frozen to account for
his claims of letter pronunciation changes, and he hasn't
done so. All he has shown are dialectal and accented
pronunciations, as well as attempts to say foreign words
besides the normal changes languages go through during
history. I question, but can't answer.
 
The same problem with frozen spellings is why I question
ancient Hebrew pronunciations as traditions have passed
them down to us.
 
Karl W. Randolph.
 
Ps. Many of my "unorthodox conclusions" I pose first as
questions, and for good reasons. Yes, I have withdrawn
some of them.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kirk" <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
>
> On 19/10/2005 22:34, Karl Randolph wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > I may be wrong, but I suspect that modern Greek is far closer to
> > Byzantine pronunciation than koiné. I date many of the
> > pronunciation changes that led to modern Greek to the Byzantine
> > period, in other words after the LXX and the New Testament with
> > their transliterations were written.
> >
> >
> >
> Karl, thank you for your comments. I agree that there are all kinds
> of uncertainties in the evidence which Buth and many other scholars
> have collected, and as a result of that different scholars have
> come to different conclusions. What bothers me is the approach
> which you and several other list members seem to take to such
> questions, as in the paragraph above. A healthy scepticism about
> the evidence and arguments presented by recognised scholars is
> good. But what is not good is an assumption that our own intuition,
> based very often on no evidence at all and no coherent arguments,
> is better than the best which scholars can come up with. Well, at
> least you say "I may be wrong". I wish that you and others would
> always say the same when presenting unorthodox conclusions.
>
> -- Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
 
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However, the ideas of sacrifice and redemption are often clearly linked 
and so he does have a point here.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Peter Kirk
Sent: Fri 10/21/2005 10:09 AM
To: tladatsi AT charter.net
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Human Sacrifice
 
On 21/10/2005 06:23, tladatsi AT charter.net wrote:

>...
>
>However, if you interested in the concept of human 
>sacrifice outside of the lexical domain of XRM, you can 
>look at 2 Sam 21.  This is clearest example of human 
>sacrifice I can think of.  Briefly, Yahweh brings a 
>terrible famine upon Israel for three years.  When David 
>asks Yahweh why and Yahweh replies that it is on account of 
>Saul?s (who is dead by this time) attempted genocide of the 
>Gibeonites.  David turns over seven male descendents (sons 
>and grandsons) to the Gibeonites who kill (MWT) them.  God 
>finds this action satisfactory and ends the famine (hmlk 
>vy?tr ?lhym l?rts ?xry kn - Elohim answering the prayers of 
>the kng for the land after that)
>
>  
>
This isn't human sacrifice, rather it is a case of punishment for a 
crime. We still find genocide repugnant and accept that it deserves the 
death penalty - well, no one will weep for Saddam Hussein. In the modern 
world we don't punish children and grandchildren for their parents' and 
grandparents' crimes, well, not deliberately although they often suffer 
more than the criminal when the criminal is locked up. But in the 
ancient world that was apparently considered just, and it was put in a 
quite different category from sacrifice.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] phonetic writing,
 was Initial "Beged Kefet" consonants always have a...
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Kevin:

Except in the rare cases where the non-native speaker is 
able to learn and speak a foreign language like a native 
speaker, his spelling, if he writes phonetically, will reflect 
his wrong pronunciation and not the correct pronunciation 
of the native speaker.

A humorous example from the last century was the 
"Katzenjammer Kids" cartoon's spellings of the immigrant 
parents' English.

Now we have gotten onto a tangent in discussing Greek 
pronunciation, but we find that it had a few similar 
sounding vowels, epsilon, eta and iota, along with 
diphthongs like EI which I suspect originally was 
pronounced similar to "e'ee" which has no similar 
diphthong in English. When spoken quickly, sloppily or 
accented like a "furriner" as a monophthong, it would 
sound either more like an eta or iota depending on which 
part of the diphthong was emphasized, hence its 
"misspellings" as eta or iota. Later the foreign accents 
became mainstreamed by the Byzantine empire, which 
would affect the pronunciations also in Greece itself.

Now getting back to Hebrew, did Biblical Hebrew have 
diphthongs? I know that Tiberian Hebrew had at least 
one, but did Biblical Hebrew? How would we know? Is it 
possible that the Aleph originally was a symbol indicating 
a diphthong? We know that it had phonemic difference 
from Eyin, which was a full glottal stop at least.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Riley" <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
> 
>   ...  I would have
> thought that non-native speakers would provide good evidence as they are
> less likely to know the spelling conventions.
> 
> Kevin Riley
> 


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