Biblical Hebrew Forum

[kgraham0938 AT comcast.net]

@Mark:
Hey are you the Mark from AOMIN chat room?  If so it is me osoclasi.  How is 
it going?  If not don't worry about this.  Anyway you wrote...

> In Psalm 25:17 just about every translation takes the first word ZaROTH as 
> a 
> construct, depending on LBaBiY, which they then take as the subject of the 
> verb HiRCHiYBU. 
Response: That is because of the feminine plural construct ending at the end 
of SARWT.  That requires that it be taken as a construct chain.
Mark:But that requires them either 
> 
> 1) to amend the text by dropping the waw at the end of the verb, turning it 
> into an imperative, or 
Response: Well, not really if you literally translate it as " the distress of 
my heart they make wide."  That is how the hiphil of RHB is used in HALOT.  
Although that does not make much sense.  I like the imperative idea though.  
> 
> 2) to change the meaning of the hiphil into a hophal, or passive sense. 
> 
> The translation of 1) becomes: The troubles of my heart are enlarged (ESV) 
Response:   Well, the prob is that even if one could take the vowels out, the 
he heh along with yod in between the HET and BET signal hiphil.  Although in 
the apparatus the vav is left off.  So maybe the imperative idea is the best 
way to take it, although you'd probably have to add something to it to make 
it a complete thought.
"The distress of my heart, Make wide [a way] and free me from my distress !"
> 
> while the translation of 2) becomes: Relieve the troubles of my heart 
> (NRSV). 
> 
> Why should not the Hebrew text be read without emendation or changing the 
> meaning of the verb by reading ZaROTH as the subject, LBaBiY as the object, 
> and HiRCHiYBU in the normal hiphil sense "enlarge"? 
> 
> Thus the translation into English would be literally "Troubles enlarge my 
> heart." 
Response: Well I guess you could do that, but I personally like to try to 
keep the text close to how it is written.

> This latter idiom is also used in Psalm 119:32 TaRCHiYB LiBBiY: "You will 
> enlarge my heart." 
> 
> The idiom also appears in Greek in 2 Corinthians 6:11. 
> 
> The problem appears to be visualizing what this means. 
> 
> It appears to me that the Hebrew is using antonyms. ZaROTH are "tight 
> spots" 
> or something narrow. While the Hebrew root RCHB refers to something wide. 
> So 
> the Psalmist seems to be saying that what appear to be troubles actually 
> widen my experience, as I learn to get through them. I can do this when God 
> answers the prayer of the last half of the verse and leads me out of 
> MZUQOTHaY, my distress. 
> 
> Why can I not find any author who understands the text this way? 

Response: I am not sure, a lot of translations don't like to go too outside 
the box.  From what I understand their is alot of pressure on translators not 
too.
>From smille10 AT sbcglobal.net  Sat Sep 24 08:42:00 2005
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From: Steven Miller <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ps 25:17
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Mark,
fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and thanks very much!
I have made the correction in my Bible.
how did you get that?

(by the way, I think you have the translations according to 1) & 2) 
reversed)

 I do not know why no other author understands the text this way, but there 
are other such errors in translations. Yours is the most straightforward 
translation. With the modern translations, it seems the translators believe 
the Old Testament is inerrant, but not 
perfect.

yours in Christ,
-Steve Miller
Detroit

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Eddy" <markeddy AT adams.net>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Ps 25:17


> In Psalm 25:17 just about every translation takes the first word ZaROTH as 
> a
> construct, depending on LBaBiY, which they then take as the subject of the
> verb HiRCHiYBU. But that requires them either
>
> 1) to amend the text by dropping the waw at the end of the verb, turning 
> it
> into an imperative, or
>
> 2) to change the meaning of the hiphil into a hophal, or passive sense.
>
> The translation of 1) becomes: The troubles of my heart are enlarged (ESV)
>
> while the translation of 2) becomes: Relieve the troubles of my heart
> (NRSV).
>
> Why should not the Hebrew text be read without emendation or changing the
> meaning of the verb by reading ZaROTH as the subject, LBaBiY as the 
> object,
> and HiRCHiYBU in the normal hiphil sense "enlarge"?
>
> Thus the translation into English would be literally "Troubles enlarge my
> heart."
>
> This latter idiom is also used in Psalm 119:32 TaRCHiYB LiBBiY: "You will
> enlarge my heart."
>
> The idiom also appears in Greek in 2 Corinthians 6:11.
>
> The problem appears to be visualizing what this means.
>
> It appears to me that the Hebrew is using antonyms. ZaROTH are "tight 
> spots"
> or something narrow. While the Hebrew root RCHB refers to something wide. 
> So
> the Psalmist seems to be saying that what appear to be troubles actually
> widen my experience, as I learn to get through them. I can do this when 
> God
> answers the prayer of the last half of the verse and leads me out of
> MZUQOTHaY, my distress.
>
> Why can I not find any author who understands the text this way?
>
> Mark Eddy