Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Fair enough. I didn't get that particular communication. I do admit that I 
don't 
see how the linguistic origin of the hebrew language and its cognates is out 
of 
bounds on a b-hebrew linguistic mailing list but I'm sure that such a 
decision 
was made without any kind of prejudice and so from now on will make a 
concerted 
effort to agree with all priori non-linguistic assumptions that are for some 
reason considered 'in bounds' while all biblical evidence on the matter is 
considered 'out of bounds'.

Thanx for passing the decision on.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of tladatsi AT charter.net
Sent: Fri 9/23/2005 6:00 AM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Language Evolution - Out of Bounds - Stare decisis
 
James,

Well, I was commenting more on the radio-carbon dating 
issue.  However, I did find a precident on this topic on 
this list (before I joined), see below:

Stare decisis- 

Wed Jun 16 15:07:27 EDT 2004

Dear b-hebrew,

Even the evolution of languages is not a topic of 
discussion within the mission of b-hebrew.  Please end this 
topic, and get back on track.

Bryan Rocine
b-hebrew co-chair




> From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
> Date: 2005/09/22 Thu AM 08:58:46 EDT
> To: <tladatsi AT charter.net>
> CC: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Language Evolution - Out of 
Bounds
> 
> 
> While I agree with you that this topic has the potential 
to go 
> out of bounds (especially when we have to explian to you 
the 
> limitations of dating techniques) I disagree that the 
discussion 
> is completely out of bounds.
> 
> The amount of time that Arabic, Hebrew, Ugaritic, Aramaic 
etc. had 
> to divrsify from their common ancestor has a direct 
relevance on the 
> linguistic discussion. 
> Historic tesimonies of the origin of the Arabic language 
are scarce 
> but Genesis tells us that Ishmael came from Abraham's 
loins and it 
> is reasonable to assume that they spoke the same 
language. As Arabic 
> tradition does not contradict the long held tradition 
that Ishmael 
> became the father of the Arabian nation it is not 
impossible that 
> the Arabic language and the Hebrew of the bible came from 
the 
> language that Abraham spoke. Now, Abraham is described as 
a hebrew. 
> Exactly what that term means we do not know. If the 
language he spoke 
> was exactly the same as the hebrew we see in the bible, 
we do not know 
> either. Archaic forms such as YHWH seem to suggest that 
the language 
> had adapted slightly by the days of Moshe and this is not 
unreasonable 
> as the language would undoubtedly have been affected by a 
few hundred 
> years of Egyptian slavery.
> 
> However, your sweeping claims that all who doubt the 
authenticity of 
> dating methods are motivated by blind faith was a little 
unwarranted.
> I am not some religious maniac born into a Christian 
family who has 
> brainwashed into rejecting everything that slightly 
contradicts the bible.
> I come from a very strong scientific background and am 
more qualified to 
> speak science than linguistics, especially chemistry 
(more especially 
> thermodynamics and reaction feasibility). I only became 
interested in 
> linguistics after being converted by strong scientific 
proofs of Yah's 
> existence and I can assure you that I was well aware of 
the limitations 
> of dating well before this time. Your summarial position 
on dating betrays 
> a surface knowledge of scientific dating methods and it 
is you who are 
> not acquainted with the facts and are reacting out of a 
'faith position'.
> 
> Without going into the technicalities (and risking going 
out of bounds) 
> it is only common sense that when you see that various 
scientific dating 
> methods vary in different orders of magnitude for the 
same object that 
> each method is based on different variables and presents 
different 
> limitations. Your idea that people on this list have 
expressed a flat 
> refusal to consider scientific dating evidence is more 
than a little 
> extreme and all who have expressed their limitations have 
adequately shown 
> that they are more acquainted with the facts than 
yourself. No-one here is 
> dissing the methods as completely useless and your idea 
that that is the case 
> is completely unfounded. In many cases the dating methods 
can give us a 
> relative model and can tell us without a shadow of a 
doubt what happened 
> before what, although in certain circumstances even here 
caution must be 
> exercised. In conclusion, dating methods are useful for 
constructing a 
> relative model but cannot and should not be used as 
absolute indications 
> of dates.
> 
> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the 
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> Security System.
> 

Jack Tladatsi
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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Having reread your posts vadim it seems that you are saying the exact same 
thing as 
Rolf but from a different perspective.

You are saying that the major use is a future tense. Rolf says the same thing.

You are saying that there are cases where the same form is used with a 
deictic 
past reference (this you attribute to a 'deictic shift'). Rolf agrees that 
the same
form is used in past reference.

You are saying that the form does not have inherent aspect in the traditional 
sense. 
Rolf is saying the exact same thing.

In fact, in conclusion, you are saying that neither tense nor aspect is 
grammaticalised 
in the form yet it is evident which tense is the major usage. Rolf is saying 
the exact 
same thing.


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On 23/09/2005 08:18, Vadim Cherny wrote:

> ...
>
>>> Continuous or repetitive? How many times, in your Gen2 examples, the
>>> earth was watered? ...
>>
>>
>> Continuously, every day.
>
>
> Every day? At any rate, no more than one day. Then the earth became
> watered, and the action became inessential. ...


Until the sun shone, the ground dried up, and the trees in the garden
started to wither. Hey, surely that can happen even in Russia in summer,
if you don't water a garden or park at least every few days.


> ... Somehow I don't see heavenly mist watering the earth today.


I did this morning. It was a misty night and there was dew on the
ground, enough to keep my lawn growing. In some places in the world
today this is very regular - there is enough mist and dew to support
significant vegetation even though it almost never rains. I think this
is true of the coast of northern Chile - inland is the Atacama Desert,
but the coastal strip is quite verdant because of heavy mists and dew.
And there may well be similar conditions in parts of the Middle East.
Anyway, this verse refers to past conditions in the Garden of Eden, so
it is irrelevant whether this happens today.
...

>>
>> Not true. I deny that English "would" is future-related.
>
>
> Look at its etymology, then.


Its etymology, like that of "will", is a verb meaning "want", as in "he
willed it to happen" - the remaining rare use of "will" as an
independent verb has a regularised morphology but certainly the same
origin. Anyway, etymology is largely irrelevant to current meaning.


--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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