Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

7. +-+  events/actions/states in the deictic past and the deictic future
but not in the deictic present (I find this one very hard to imagine,
but I put it in for logical completeness)

JCR:

eg I go swimming every morning. Now is afternoon and so I am not swimming.
This morning I swam and tomorrow I will swim again. Action refers to past 
and future but not present.

4. -+-  events/actions/states entirely in the deictic present

JCR:

Now this one is completely impossible. Think about it!

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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Genesis 25:25, Different Lexemes & No Puns?
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 25:25, Different Lexemes & No Puns?
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Hebrew1: Edom had red hair and ate some red stew and lived in a place called 
red.

Hebrew2: No! Stop! You're killing me! My sides are splitting. Oh you really 
are a 
         funny guy.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Heard, Christopher
Sent: Fri 9/16/2005 7:46 PM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Genesis 25:25, Different Lexemes & No Puns?
 
Karl,

You seem to have an idiosyncratic, or at least non-standard,  
definition of what a "pun" is. According to my English dictionary  
nearest to hand, a pun is "a joke exploiting the different possible  
meanings of a word or the fact that there are words that sound alike  
but have different meanings." An example given is "the pigs were a  
squeal," which is a pun because in English "a squeal" can refer both  
to a sound pigs make and to a delightful experience.

Thus when the narrator of Genesis uses ??? )DM in Gen 25,  
exploiting the different possible senses of the word as the color  
red, the name for a stew, a nickname for Esau, and the name of the  
people/nation of Edom, that certainly qualifies as "punning" in the  
sense defined above (which is not "what I think of," but what my  
dictionary reports as the commonly accepted usage).

Chris

On Sep 16, 2005, at 9:26 AM, Karl Randolph wrote:

> Jack:
>
> Either your definition of a pun is different than mine, or the
> examples you give below are not puns.
>
> When I think of puns, I think of examples like when we as
> kids played name the state capitals game: after a few months
> we all could name the state, then immediately give the capital,
> so to keep interest we started referring to "Home of the gods"
> (Olympia, Washington), "Famous missionary" (St. Paul,
> Minnesota) and among those were puns "Metropolis
> underneath automobiles" (Cars On City (Carson City), Nevada)
> and "Completely rabbit" (All Bunny (Albany), New York). Merely
> calling a person's descendants and/or place after his nickname
> does not fit my understanding of "pun", certainly not in English
> nor in Biblical Hebrew.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tladatsi AT charter.net
>
>>
>> Not the same lexeme?
>>
>> The OT is quite clear that the nation of ?DM is supposed to
>> be named after Esau s nickname ?DM (Gen 36:1 and 36:8).
>> For this to be true, the two words would have to be the
>> exact same lexeme.  Esau s nickname was given to him
>> because he asked his brother for a bowl of ?DM (Gen 25:30).
>> There seems no way to me for someone to be named after a
>> bowl of red stew and that name not being the same lexeme as
>> the red stew. Three of these words are unquestionable the
>> same lexeme, each being a link in a chain of thing being
>> named after each other, all of which are red. The only
>> questionable word is ?DMNY which is universally translated
>> in ancient times and modern as red, reddish, or ruddy
>> (e.g., LXX purrakhv, Vulg. rufus).   The core concept of
>> redness and the clear link to a common grammatical root
>> makes a very strong case for these four words being the
>> same lexeme.  (Some might argue that the name of the nation
>> Edom really is derived from the color of the countryside.
>> Most of the Trans-Jordanian country is the color of the
>> infield of baseball field, the red color of brick. It is an
>> iron oxide thing.  However that is neither here nor there).
>>
>> Not a pun?
>>
>> Esau is born ?DMNY and in turn give birth to a nation
>> called ?DM.   Esau asked Jacob / Israel for ?DM and
>> received it in exchange for his birthright.  Thus his
>> descendants received from him the country called ?DM
>> (instead of the land of Canaan which Israel received)
>> because Esau asked for ?DM from Israel  Of course, the
>> older nation of Edom was conquered by the younger nation of
>> Israel as the older brother Esau / Edom lost his birthright
>> to the younger brother Jacob / Israel.
>>
>> Puns with political punch proliferate profusely.
>>
>> These are not the only puns in Ex. 25, although the only
>> one which is based on a single lexeme.  Esau is also born
>> S?R, hairy.  His descendents lived in the land of S?YR.
>> These are clearly not the same lexeme but a phonetically
>> based pun.
>>
>>
>> Jack Tladatsi
>>
>
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R. Christopher Heard
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Pepperdine University
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Internet Resource Index: http://www.iTanakh.org
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George wrote
James has provided absolutely nothing so my judgment that his claim is
"baloney" still stands.

JCR: I see that I still stand on your judgement seat. Allow me to illustrate 
the process of graduating at St. Andrews. In order to graduate the hebrew 
half of my degree I had to sit through a module named OT something or other.
The lecturer was new and could hardly speak a word of English. He would come 
to lectures and from the moment he started lecturing his head would not raise 
from his notes until he had finished rambling at us in a language which could 
only be described as Germglish. Needless to say the lectures were enthralling 
for those who needed German aural practice.

At the end of the term we were handed three pieces of paper. The first was a 
copy of the exam paper (hmmmm?). The second was the lecturer's Germglish 
model 
answers to the exam questions (ahhhh!) And the third was a questionnaire 
about 
the module. We were instructed to memorise the model answers and to reproduce 
them in the exam. The lecturer, whose name it is perhaps better I don't 
mention, had 
immediately gone from zero to hero. After three months of everybody 
complaining 
that they couldn't understand a word he was saying they were all now writing 
what 
an excellent teacher he was and how St. Andrews should have more lecturers 
like 
him.

Conclusion: The choice was simple. Either you memorised his opinions and 
reproduced 
them in the exam or you risked failing by showing that you had studied the 
sources 
and been capable of formulating your own opinion. 

P.S. All those who wrote his model answers got A's (including the ones who 
has been 
absent from lectures because they couldn't understand a word he was saying)

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This is not true. It is easily demonstrable when the bible claims that Moses 
lived. We are given an unbroken timeline from Adam to Joseph in the torah 
itself. Working backwards we can see the timeline from the babylonian exile 
through all the kings up to Joshua. This leaves a grey area between Joseph 
and Moses. How many years? How many generations? For those who accept that 
the Christian Greek scriptures can give valuable insight on Jewish history
it is easy to calculate this grey period by the reference to the 
'400 years of affliction' of God's people. This makes the 10th century an 
absolute 'no-no' and the 'scholarly' assumption that Rameses was the pharoah 
of the time of the exodus is way out.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yitzhak Sapir
Sent: Fri 9/16/2005 2:15 PM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
 
On 9/15/05, Karl Randolph wrote:

> Now the Bible claims that Torah, with minor exceptions, was
> written in the 14th century BC, a major literary work during
> the early phase of proto-Canaanite writing: if that claim is
> accurate, that means that the ancient Hebrews had alphabet
> well before the Phoenicians. That would also indicate that
> people were using perishable materials for their records even
> then, making it very unlikely to find materials prior to the
> DSS in the historical record, other than copied claims. But
> there is no independent confirmation of those claims.

Why does every argument with you have to do with the 14th
century?  Where did I say that the "ancient Hebrews" did not
have the alphabet before the Phoenicians?  How do you know
that the Phoenicians didn't write on perishable materials?
The fact of the matter is, that the alphabet originated in the
Levant, and originally had more than the 22 symbols.  The 22
letter alphabet is known from the 11th-10th centuries.  As
such, it does not fit Hebrew which distinguishes the Shin and
the Sin.  It is more likely that this alphabet simply had 
international status in the 10th century.  For example, Naveh
notes that Kilamuwa wrote his inscription in "Phoenician" 
even though it was not the local language.  So, just like
today English does not have separate graphemes for 'th'
or 'sh' even though these were in some sense at some
point of the history of the alphabet part of the alphabet 
(theta and Shin), so too Hebrew spelled its words using
the international alphabet.  Hey, we don't even need to
discuss the 14th century because even if literary works that
you hold were written in the 14th century were so written,
they could have been written using a more extensive
alphabet and simply moved over to the "concise alphabet"
later, just like today the square script is used while 
originally the Old Hebrew script was used.  Besides, Dr. 
Richard Steiner is a professor at Yeshiva University.  And 
while I don't know his particular views on the subject, it 
suggests you are not even in position to substantiate 
your claims via recourse to "tradition."

In fact, all your post above is made up of unsubstantiated
claims.  Except for two claims ("much inscriptional evidence
is written mostly in clay cuneiform and stone inscriptions" 
and "The Bible claims the Torah was written in the 14th
century"), which are very general statements, I see not one 
place in your entire post where you bring evidence to 
support your claims.  So why should I accept any 
sentence of it?  Have you even read Aramaic,
Arabic, or Ugaritic except for those portions of Aramaic
that are in the Bible?  

Yitzhak Sapir
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James:

If all he required is that you regurgitate his teachings, then 
your claim is weakened. If he required that you agree with 
his teachings, that is a different matter.

I had profs as an undergrad who merely required that I 
master what they taught, and show it. They accepted it 
when I answered according to their expected answers with 
a disclaimer to the effect "This is the answer you want ..." 
What it showed was that I knew their subject matter, even 
when I disagreed with it.

This way took more work than merely reproducing his 
expected answers, but it allowed me both to get a passing 
grade as well as keep my integrity intact. 

I thought you had run into a prof like one at Texas Tech 
University (a public university) who gave anyone who did 
not BELIEVE what he taught a failing grade. That prof did 
not accept mere mastery of his teaching, rather he required 
agreement with it in order to pass. Legal action forced him 
to back down.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
> 
> George wrote
> James has provided absolutely nothing so my judgment that his claim is
> "baloney" still stands.
> 
> JCR: I see that I still stand on your judgement seat. Allow me to illustrate
> the process of graduating at St. Andrews. In order to graduate the hebrew
> half of my degree I had to sit through a module named OT something or other.
> The lecturer was new and could hardly speak a word of English. He would come
> to lectures and from the moment he started lecturing his head would not 
> raise
> from his notes until he had finished rambling at us in a language which 
> could
> only be described as Germglish. Needless to say the lectures were 
> enthralling
> for those who needed German aural practice.
> 
> At the end of the term we were handed three pieces of paper. The first was a
> copy of the exam paper (hmmmm?). The second was the lecturer's Germglish 
> model
> answers to the exam questions (ahhhh!) And the third was a questionnaire 
> about
> the module. We were instructed to memorise the model answers and to 
> reproduce
> them in the exam. The lecturer, whose name it is perhaps better I 
> don't mention, had
> immediately gone from zero to hero. After three months of everybody 
> complaining
> that they couldn't understand a word he was saying they were all 
> now writing what
> an excellent teacher he was and how St. Andrews should have more 
> lecturers like
> him.
> 
> Conclusion: The choice was simple. Either you memorised his 
> opinions and reproduced
> them in the exam or you risked failing by showing that you had 
> studied the sources
> and been capable of formulating your own opinion.
> 
> P.S. All those who wrote his model answers got A's (including the 
> ones who has been
> absent from lectures because they couldn't understand a word he was saying)

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