Biblical Hebrew Forum

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: kap or kop (Tyler Williams)
2. Re: kap or kop (Tyler Williams)
3. Re: kap or kop (Peter Kirk)
4. Re: kap or kop (Yitzhak Sapir)
5. Re: kap or kop (Tyler Williams)
6. Transliteration (Matanya Ophee)
7. Re: Transliteration (Yitzhak Sapir)
8. Re: Transliteration (Matanya Ophee)
9. kap or kop (Uri Hurwitz)
10. Re: kap or kop (Yigal Levin)
11. More on Exodus 33:11-23 (tladatsi AT charter.net)
12. Kimhi (Yigal Levin)
13. Ex33:19 and 3:14 (Vadim Cherny)
14. Did Clement of Alexandria write YHWH = Iaou? (David P Donnelly)
15. Re: Did Clement of Alexandria write YHWH = Iaou?
(kgraham0938 AT comcast.net)
16. Did Clement of Alexandria write YHWH = Iaou? (David P Donnelly)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:59:32 -0600
From: "Tyler Williams" 

Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: 
Message-ID: <20050910165939.C67AF4C006 AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>The Israeli pronounciation is "kaf"; isn't the Greek "kappa" its
>equivalent?

That's what I've always thought, Uri. I'm trying to figure out if there is
some reason the second edition of Kittel's text has it as "kof"

So far it seems to be an error from the first edition that now has been
"canonized" in the second edition!

-Tyler Williams





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:19:37 -0600
From: "Tyler Williams" 

Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: 
Message-ID: <20050910181945.16BBC4C006 AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Solomon, 



That is what I was wondering, though Kittel/Hoffer is very inconsistent
then, since everything else in the grammar follows Modern Hebrew/Shepardi
pronunciation. For instance, she doesn't follow Ashkenazi pronunciation for
bet (Ashkenazi beis), dalet (Ashkenazi doles), tzadi (Ashkenazi tsodi), or
any other consonants or vowels.



Very strange, IMHO.



-Tyler



_____ 

From: Awohili AT aol.com [mailto:Awohili AT aol.com] 
Sent: September 10, 2005 11:07 AM
To: lists AT biblical-studies.ca
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop



Or Kittel may represent the Ashkenazi pronunciation ("kof"), whereas the
Israeli pronunciation is Sephardi ("kaf").



Solomon Landers



In a message dated 09/10/2005 10:00:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lists AT biblical-studies.ca writes:

>The Israeli pronounciation is "kaf"; isn't the Greek "kappa" its
>equivalent?

That's what I've always thought, Uri. I'm trying to figure out if there is
some reason the second edition of Kittel's text has it as "kof"

So far it seems to be an error from the first edition that now has been
"canonized" in the second edition!

-Tyler Williams





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:32:41 +0100
From: Peter Kirk 

Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: Tyler Williams 

Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <432326C9.8040902 AT qaya.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 10/09/2005 19:19, Tyler Williams wrote:

>...
>
>From: Awohili AT aol.com [mailto:Awohili AT aol.com] 
>Sent: September 10, 2005 11:07 AM
>To: lists AT biblical-studies.ca
>Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
>
> 
>
>Or Kittel may represent the Ashkenazi pronunciation ("kof"), whereas the
>Israeli pronunciation is Sephardi ("kaf").
>
> 
>
>Solomon Landers
>
> 
>
So, what is the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the letter ? qof or qoph? And 
what is Kittel's rendering? Do Ashkenazis distinguish the sounds of the 
letters ? kaf and ? qof?


-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:42:17 +0000
From: Yitzhak Sapir 
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 9/10/05, Tyler Williams wrote:
> Thanks Solomon,

> [quoting Solomon Landers]
> 
> Or Kittel may represent the Ashkenazi pronunciation ("kof"), 
> whereas the Israeli pronunciation is Sephardi ("kaf").
> 

Then it would be wrong on the Ashkenazi pronunciation too! The
letter, and word, kaph has a patah (a qamats only as a pausal
form), and so is a short "a". This is probably why the Greek reads
kappa, which if taken from Phoenician would represent a sound
not affected by the shift from "long a" to "o" which is visible in the 
previous letter iota. The same rule takes effect also in the 
Ashkenazi pronunciation of the sound. An example web page is 
that shows this is: http://www.torahscribe.com/letters.htm
(I also found web pages that claim the letter is "Chof" or 
something to that effect, though...)

Peter Kirk wrote:
> So, what is the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the letter ? qof or
> qoph? And what is Kittel's rendering? Do Ashkenazis distinguish 
> the sounds of the letters ? kaf and ? qof?

Both Ashkenazis and Israelis distinguish the letters only by their 
sound without a dagesh. As to the names of the letters, the names 
are clearly distinguishable because of the "short a"/"long a" 
difference.

Yitzhak Sapir

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:49:12 -0600
From: "Tyler Williams" 

Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: 
Message-ID: <20050910184919.B4EC64C006 AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"

>So, what is the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the letter ? qof or qoph? And 
>what is Kittel's rendering? Do Ashkenazis distinguish the sounds of the 
>letters ? kaf and ? qof?

Hi Peter, Kittel has ? as khof and ? as qof. From what I can determine
Modern Israeli, Sephardi, and Ashkenazi all pronounce ? as /k/ (plosive) or
/x/ (fricative/spirant), while ? is pronounced in all three as /k/.

What I think may be going on in Kittel upon further reflection is a
inconsistent use of Ashkenazi for some pronunciations (perhaps due to
influence from liturgical usage?). In the aleph-bet song on the CD that you
can purchase with the Textbook, the ? is pronounced as "quf" which is also
the Ashkenazi pronunciation (although the text lists the letter as "qof"). 

-Tyler Wiliams




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:55:05 -0400
From: Matanya Ophee 
Subject: [b-hebrew] Transliteration
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
<6.2.3.4.2.20050910144917.056dce80 AT pop-server.columbus.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

To all,

I am new to this list and not familiar with previous traffic here 
regarding my query, which is:

Are there in existence a set of rules for transliterating Hebrew into 
a Latin alphabet which will give the reader an idea of the 
traditional Sephardi pronunciation?

I am a publisher of music, and for the first time, I have been 
entrusted in publishing a composition with Hebrew text. (Hebrew is my 
native language). I need to provide a phonetic transliteration which 
will give a non-Hebrew speaker a fairly good notion on how to 
pronounce the lyrics (from Shir Ha-Shirim), in a way that will make a 
difference between Aleph, Hei and Eyin.

If there is such a thing in existence, I appreciate pointing me in 
the right direction.

Thanks in advance.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
Phone: 614-846-9517
Fax: 614-846-9794
mailto:m.ophee AT orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ 




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:06:45 +0000
From: Yitzhak Sapir 
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Transliteration
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 9/10/05, Matanya Ophee wrote:
> To all,
> 
> I am new to this list and not familiar with previous traffic here
> regarding my query, which is:
> 
> Are there in existence a set of rules for transliterating Hebrew into
> a Latin alphabet which will give the reader an idea of the
> traditional Sephardi pronunciation?
> 
> I am a publisher of music, and for the first time, I have been
> entrusted in publishing a composition with Hebrew text. (Hebrew is my
> native language). I need to provide a phonetic transliteration which
> will give a non-Hebrew speaker a fairly good notion on how to
> pronounce the lyrics (from Shir Ha-Shirim), in a way that will make a
> difference between Aleph, Hei and Eyin.
> 
> If there is such a thing in existence, I appreciate pointing me in
> the right direction.

I would suggest using the following table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet#Name_and_transliteration

and using an up to date browser to view it so you see all the special symbols
properly. 

Yitzhak Sapir


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:38:54 -0400
From: Matanya Ophee 
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Transliteration
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
<6.2.3.4.2.20050910173346.05747930 AT pop-server.columbus.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 03:06 PM 9/10/2005, yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com wrote:
>I would suggest using the following table:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet#Name_and_transliteration
>
>and using an up to date browser to view it so you see all the special symbols
>properly.


Thank you. I would have to study this in detail, but it seems that it 
would not serve my purpose. The audience for my publication is not 
academic, but rather a general public of professional singers who 
probably never even heard of the International Phonetic Alphabet. I 
will have to use, and if it does not exist, invent a transliteration 
that uses plain Latin characters. With diacritics if necessary.

I have done this recently for Russian, and the result does not look 
like anything you will see in the academic literature, but perfectly 
understandable for singers.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
Phone: 614-846-9517
Fax: 614-846-9794
mailto:m.ophee AT orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ 




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Uri Hurwitz 
Subject: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050910214438.70288.qmail AT web51611.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

There is a clear differece between the "KAF" and the "QUF"( or as some say 
"QOF").
The latter is one of the emphatic letters and was pronouced as such; so are 
the the "TSADEI" and the "TET".

The differences between the KAF and the QUF is completely lost in the 
Ashkenzi pronounciation, and also in the ordinary Israeli speech which for 
this reason, and others, should be decribed as 'modified Sephardi'.

Uri

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:55:31 +0200
From: "Yigal Levin" 
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] kap or kop
To: "b-hebrew" 
Message-ID: <003d01c5b65c$0b88d350$5d664684@xp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The average educated native-born Israeli is aware of the difference in the
"proper" pronunciation between Kaph and Qoph and between Tav and +et, but
does not pronounce it. The fact is, that most Sephardi traditions didn't
pronounce the differences either. Most people are more aware of the
pronounciation of (Ayin and Xet, but would only bother if they felt a need
to emphasize the difference between them and Aleph and Khaph.

Yigal


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uri Hurwitz" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] kap or kop


> There is a clear differece between the "KAF" and the "QUF"( or as some say
"QOF").
> The latter is one of the emphatic letters and was pronouced as such; so
are the the "TSADEI" and the "TET".
>
> The differences between the KAF and the QUF is completely lost in the
Ashkenzi pronounciation, and also in the ordinary Israeli speech which for
this reason, and others, should be decribed as 'modified Sephardi'.
>
> Uri
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 1:17:16 -0400
From: 
Subject: [b-hebrew] More on Exodus 33:11-23
To: 
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <48uv17$5bmtk6 AT mxip26a.cluster1.charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

HH,

You are correct, I should have started at 33:11 but 34 
seems disconnected from 33. The DH folks argue that most of 
34 is J while all of 33 is E.

How is seeing Yahweh s glory being taught Yahweh?s ways? 
This is an odd formula is it not? It seems to me the usual 
formula is that Yahweh s ways are expressed in the 
commandments (e.g. Ex 18:20 or Deu 5:33). ? Is there 
somewhere else in the Bible where this formula of learning 
Yahweh?s ways by seeing His glory is expressed? 

I do not see that it is clear that Moses actually saw 
Yahweh?s Glory. The verb is 3rd person qal perfect (to be) 
followed by a infinite construct (passing) and then the 
noun (my glory). If I understand the words correctly, as 
the glory is passing by Yahweh will lift up Moses and place 
him inside the crevice of rock and cover both the crevice 
and Moses with Yahweh?s hand until the glory passed. When 
Yahweh removed his hand, Moses only saw Yahweh?s backside. 
The implication seems to be that Yahweh?s glory had already 
passed and is not visible from behind. 

As an aside, it seems a very odd image, Yahweh picking up 
Moses, placing him into the crevice of a rock, holding His 
hand over both the crevice and Moses, while walking to a 
location where Moses can only see His backside. Even 
reckoning that Yahweh would be seen as having exaggerated 
features, it is a series of anatomically complicated and 
counter-intuitive actions.

Also Yahweh seems to be answering questions Moses did not 
ask. As I noted earlier Yahweh tells Moses that he may not 
see Yahweh?s face even though Moses did not ask to see His 
face. Yahweh goes on to say that He loves whom He loves 
and He honors whom He honors (or however you want to 
translate that). What question is Yahweh answering? In 
Ex 3:14 Moses asks Yahweh what His name is and Yahweh 
responds I am who I am which some correspondents suggest is 
a non-response, if not actually a rude or snide response 
(verb ?asher ?verb). Irrespective of the nature of the 
response, it is a response to a question. Moses did not 
ask Yahweh anything about who is loved or favored and 
Yahweh has already said that Moses has His favor. It is 
almost as if someone asked why does Moses get this special 
treatment and Yahweh responds I will decide who gets 
special treatment who does not. 


Jack Tladatsi


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:41:28 +0200
From: "Yigal Levin" 
Subject: [b-hebrew] Kimhi
To: "b-hebrew" ,

Message-ID: <000a01c5b6ac$b4306db0$4a664684@xp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-8-i"

Shalom y'all,

Does anyone know of a published English translation of David Kimhi (Radak)'s 
commentary of Samuel?

Thanks,

Yigal Levin

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:45:50 +0300
From: "Vadim Cherny" 
Subject: [b-hebrew] Ex33:19 and 3:14
To: 
Message-ID: <002901c5b6a4$d51d5bd0$261d000a@vadim>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r"

Ex33:19 has similar constructs to Ex3:14, 'waw-1PT verb et-asher 1FT verb".

Moses asks in Ex33:16 about himself and the people. The answer also refers to 
both: show the goodness to Moses, and forgive the people. 

Both parts of the answer are palliative refusal: Moses cannot be shown the 
glory (Ex33:20), but only the goodness; people cannot be forgiven en masse, 
but many of them will be forgiven (those to whom God will show mercy).

Ex3:14 is also a palliative refusal: Moses cannot be told the name (he never 
utters it to the people), but a working alternative, "God of your ancestors."

The same sense of 'verb asher verb' construct, palliative refusal, is present 
in Modern Hebrew and in Russian.



Vadim Cherny


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 06:45:03 -0400
From: David P Donnelly 
Subject: [b-hebrew] Did Clement of Alexandria write YHWH = Iaou?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050911.064504.2512.1.davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/IaouFootnote.jpg

At the link above is a portion of the Article "Jehovah" from the
Encyclopedia Britannica of 1910-11.

It mentions that Clement of Alexandria said that the Tetragrammaton was
pronounced "Iaoue",
however in a footnote at the bottom of the page,
it mentions that 3 different variants are found at Stromata Book V.
Chapter 6.

One of these variants is "Iaou" and it is said to be found in Codex L.

Codex L is Greek Codex Laurentianus V 3, and is an eleventh century
manuscript.

It is possible that Codex Laurentianus is the oldest evidence in
existence,
that preserves the actual Greek spelling that Clement of Alexandria 
wrote in about 200 A.D. 

Dave Donnelly 

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:45:07 +0000
From: kgraham0938 AT comcast.net
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Did Clement of Alexandria write YHWH = Iaou?
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
<091120051145.21871.432418C3000ABCB90000556F2207021573C8CCC7CF030E080E9D0905 AT comcast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain


If you look in HALOT it says ....

"by the transcription IAOUAI/E in Clement of Alexandria Stromata 5:6." p395
--
Kelton Graham 
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/IaouFootnote.jpg 
> 
> At the link above is a portion of the Article "Jehovah" from the 
> Encyclopedia Britannica of 1910-11. 
> 
> It mentions that Clement of Alexandria said that the Tetragrammaton was 
> pronounced "Iaoue", 
> however in a footnote at the bottom of the page, 
> it mentions that 3 different variants are found at Stromata Book V. 
> Chapter 6. 
> 
> One of these variants is "Iaou" and it is said to be found in Codex L. 
> 
> Codex L is Greek Codex Laurentianus V 3, and is an eleventh century 
> manuscript. 
> 
> It is possible that Codex Laurentianus is the oldest evidence in 
> existence, 
> that preserves the actual Greek spelling that Clement of Alexandria 
> wrote in about 200 A.D. 
> 
> Dave Donnelly 
> _______________________________________________ 
> b-hebrew mailing list 
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew 

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:01:20 -0400
From: David P Donnelly 

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Subject: [b-hebrew] 11th century Codex  Laurentianus V 3 says: YHWH = Iaou
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http://www.christianism.com/articles/13.html 
At the link above, the following information is found :
[See note below the quote!]
>>>
from: Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, Books One to Three, 
Translated by John Ferguson, 
The Catholic University of America Press, c1991. 

"Textual Tradition 
The Stromateis survives in an eleventh-century manuscript from Florence 
(L = Laurentianus V 3), 
which has been supposed to have belonged, like Parisinus 451 (preserving
Protrepticus) to Arethas, Archbishop of Caesarea.
It is carelessly written, with errors of names and numbers, phrases
omitted and the like. 
The only other manuscript is the sixteenth-century Parisinus Supplementum
Graecum 250, which is in the direct line of descent from the earlier
manuscript and of no independent value. " 
>>>
Note! http://www.christianism.com/articles/13.html takes you to
"Christianism-Article 13"
Addendum E [pages 315-319] in “Christianism-Article 13” deals with
Clement of Alexandria. 
The text quoted above is found on page 317. 
Watch the right side of the screen as you scroll down.
*************************************************************************
*******
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/IaouFootnote.jpg 
At the above link is an image of an article from the Encyclopedia
Britannica of 1910-11
The image can be enlarged via the icon at the bottom right of the image.
The image shows that there are three variants found in Stromata V.
Chapter 6.
They are Iaoue, Iaouai, and Iaou,
Iaou is found in the 11 th century Greek manuscript Laurentianus V 3

If in the 11th century, Greek manuscript Laurentianus V 3 preserves the
spelling “Iaou”
at Stromata Book V. Chapter 6, verse 34.

What authority are 19th and 20th century scholars using 
when they say that Clement of Alexandria wrote “Iaoue”
in his Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6 verse 34?
 
While there are extant Catenas that claim that Clement of Alexandria
wrote "Iaoue" 
in Stromata Book V. Chapter 6, verse 34, 
what Greek manuscript evidence were the authors of these Catenas  using, 
when they quoted Clement of Alexandria as writing Iaoue at Stromata Book
V. Chapter 6, verse 34?

Again it should be noted that  the 11th century Greek Codex Laurentianus 
V 3
 preserves the Greek spelling "Iaou" at Stromata Book V. Chapter 6 verse
34! 

Dave Donnelly