Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

I enrolled to study the language.I am and was perfectly willing to listen to 
linguistic arguments 
that involve semantic studies, etymology, philology etc.

The problem was not so much that I was imposed to study things which were non 
linguistic but 
rather that I was expected to agree with them in order to pass the exams.
I know that that is not the way things *should* be but that is the way that 
things *are*.

My course was not divinity or a theology degree but the course content that 
contained such was much 
higher. I got perfect scores in my hebrew modules because the hebrew 
teacher,Dr Davilla, was very 
critical of the bible text and he would objectively consider linguistic 
arguments. So when I said 
something like 'the primary meaning of she'ol is grave and there is not one 
instance of the word she'ol 
that demands the reader to understand anything more' he would take that as an 
objective observation.

However, when I made similar linguistic observations in other less linguistic 
modules I was treated 
like a moron and downgraded for not sharing the mainstream christian theology.

I complained that I had enrolled for a linguistic degree and did not want to 
partake in theologically 
oriented modules but no such exceptions were made. Time for me was precious 
and having a language 
to learn I opted for self study rather than getting involved in such 
fruitless debates.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk AT qaya.org]
Sent: Mon 9/5/2005 1:10 PM
To: Read, James C
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Doctorates or not
 
On 04/09/2005 11:38, Read, James C wrote:

>I studied hebrew at St. Andrews Uni and got a perfect score in both hebrew 
>modules. However, 
>I did not graduate from the university because in order to pass all the 
>prescribed modules I 
>would have had to compromise my relationship with Yah. The choice was simple.
>
>1) Tell the truth and not graduate
>2) Lie and graduate
>
>I am proud to say that my integrity is still in tact. I would have loved to 
>have done a Ph. D 
>in b-hebrew but I am not willing to call Yah a liar in order to achieve it.
>  
>

James, I am really surprised that you got into this position at a state 
supported university in the UK. (Private universities in the USA are 
different - some won't let you graduate unless you can sign their 
statement of faith.)

I can understand that you might have had to study texts and listen to 
lecturers' opinions which disagreed with your beliefs. Well, you seem to 
be prepared to read material on this list which you don't agree with - 
and come up with good and strong arguments against that material and for 
your own position. Similarly, at UK universities, you would have the 
opportunity to present, in your essays and exams, arguments against the 
opinions which you reject. Of course such arguments would have to be 
proper ones based on accepted "scholarly" criteria, not faith-based ones 
like "I don't believe this", or "Jesus said Moses wrote this, so that is 
the end of the argument" - but for the kinds of positions which you have 
in mind there are reasonable "scholarly" arguments. And it might require 
harder work to find and set out the arguments against a position rather 
than summarise the text book's or lecturer's arguments in favour of it. 
But a clever student like yourself should have been able to take such 
courses, and come up with arguments for the positions which you hold 
which would convince even examiners who don't share your position that 
you are a good student. For the criteria for acceptable work are 
supposed to be not the conclusions you come to but the arguments which 
you present for those conclusions.

 I know of many people who have got through whole theology degree 
courses at UK universities in this way without compromising their faith. 
I'm sure you could have done it with a few modules which are not 
strictly linguistic.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Cognate languages - limitations
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
To: "Kevin Riley" <klriley AT alphalink.com.au>
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Searching German for a cognate partner of the word 'education' would give 
very fruitless results. 
English can be viewed as two languages. The informal which is related to 
Germanic languages and the 
formal which is related to latin languages.

We are not talking about the odd 'borrowed' word in English. A very large 
percentage of English words 
come from a latin origin as a direct result of norman and roman occupations.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Kevin Riley
Sent: Mon 9/5/2005 12:25 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Cognate languages - limitations
 
 If scholars were using Somali to discover the meaning of Hebrew words you
would have a good analogy - but they aren't.  How much closer would the
scholars be if they used Dutch or German to determine the meaning of the
English?  That is more analogous to what is done in the field of Semitic
studies.  Scholars who count Italian as a close cognate language have more
problems than the meaning of a word or two.

Kevin Riley
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Read, James C
Date: 09/05/05 17:39:06
 
Imagine 2,000 years from now a group of 'scholars' that go about studying
the now dead English language.
 
They stuble frequently upon the phrase 'what bad education'.
They know that the construct 'what bad' usually indicates an exclamation of
negativity but are not familiar with the
term 'education'. What do they do? They look at the cognate languages!
 
In the italian language they find the well documented phrase 'che
maleducazione'. Reasoning that educazione is
the cognate partner of education they assume that the meanings are the same.
'Che maleducazione' means something like 'What bad manners!' or 'How rude!'
or something like that. They theorise that English has the same
meaning and go off and check the data. They go off and find many phrases
like:
 
What bad education standards they have in Herts!
What bad education standards they have in schools these days!
What bad education methods they employ!
 
Having analysed the data they see that the meaning of 'what bad manners'
fits the context well and apart from one
or two difficult examples they conclude that this is the correct meaning.
Their work gets published and for generations is taught as well accepted
scholarly work.
 
A young student with little experience with English, but good linguistic
instincts comes along and feels that the
accepted view just doesn't feel right. He finds it difficult to reconcile
this idea with the examples where, according to
him, the context demands the idea of 'accademic schooling' to be understood.
He is abruptly laughed out of class
and fails his exams for agreeing with the scholarly concensus which is
firmly based on the majorit of extant
examples and a well attested cognate proof.
Undettered he goes home and takes it upon himself to compare every extant
example of the phrase and to put his
theory to the test. After seeing that his interpretation fits every single
occurence of the phrase and also seems to
throw a clearer light on previously misunderstood examples. Not wanting to
jump the gun he tries to prove his
theory wrong but the more he does so the more his good linguistic instincts
show him that his first instincts were
right.
As a last shot he searches throught the archives of italian literature and
stumbles across an overlooked rosetta
stone. He finds two parrallel newspaper articles talking about the
increasing bad manners of youngsters with
each passing generation. He notices that the term used in the italian
version is 'maleducazione' where English
talks of 'bad manners'. He now feels that he has conclusively gathered
enough evidence to show that the
'scholars' got it wrong.
 
He tries to publish his work but everyone ignores him. Why??? Because he
didn't get his degree!!! Why didn't he
get his degree??? Because he didn't blindly agree with the 'scholarly'
concensus.
 
He decides to publish his work on public forums hoping to get a warmer
welcome and bumps into a well lettered
scholar. The well lettered scholar digs up a paper that comments on the
newspaper articles and puts it down to
idioma in an isolated example and challenges the youngster to prove that it
is not just an isolated example of an
idiom. The youngster insists that he needn't but the 'scholar' retorts
immediately that as he is the one going against
the 'scholarly' concensus the owness of proof is on him. The majority of the
forum is impressed by the 'scholar's'
resourcefulness and familiarity with 'scholarly' works and pays no heed to
the enthusiastic youngster with no degree.
 
Sound familiar?
 

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>From jwest AT highland.net  Mon Sep  5 09:37:53 2005
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Kevin Graham wrote:
>
> Anyway, red flags always pop up for me whenever a ThD starts preaching,
> using his or her "academic" credentials as proof he or she is right and I'm
> wrong. Too much of the Bible "theology"is based on interpretation outside
> the rules of Hebrew and Greek, which is why the comparison to the MD in a
> life saving situation is absurd.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Kevin
>


Kevin's biases are showing.  And his comments are exactly worth what he
suggests they are.  About 2 pennies.  And that won't even buy a stick of
gum any more.

Jim


--
Jim West, ThD

Biblical Studies Resources -  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Biblical Theology Weblog -  http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com

Non ergo fidem confirmare potest ulla creatura -- Huldrych Zwingli