Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Evgeny Ivanov <evi7538 AT yahoo.com>]

Just to offer for consideration another possible translation/interpretation 
of 2Sam24:1
 
The anger of God (towards people of Israel) moved IN THEM (BaHeM) David to 
say ... (Actually, this is exactly how this verse is translated in Russian 
(Sinodal) Old Testament translation)
 
So the anger of God caused (moved) people of Israel to ask (tempt) David to 
command to count. Theological explanation - anger of God is withdrawal of His 
grace, so man become subject to temptations. The anger of God (withdrawal of 
grace) caused such a psychological state in both Israel and David that they 
were moved by temptation to count.
 
Evgeny
 

Dave Washburn <dwashbur AT nyx.net> wrote:
Just a couple of general comments:

On Friday 05 August 2005 09:06, George F Somsel wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:42:40 +0100 "Read, James C"
>
> writes:
> > I do not want to get invovled in a futile debate about the
> > authorship of Job but even
> > critics agree that it was composed long before Kings and Chronicles
> > and so for the
> > purposed of our discussion the book of Job provides a good context
> > in understanding
> > what could seem to be a contradiction.
> > The book of Job clearly identifies trials and temptation as
> > originating with a fallen
> > angel named Satan (adversary).
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Your characterization of the date of composition of Job is not correct.
> The proposed dates vary all over the ball-park. In the WBC volume 17 on
> Job 1-20 David J. A. Clines notes
>
> "Most scholars today would date the composition of the Book of Job
> to some point between the seventh and the second centuries b.c.e., with
> the probability that a prose folktale of a pious sufferer existed long
> before the largely poetic book itself was written.
> "The story of the Book of Job is set in the patriarchal era depicted in
> Genesis: like Abraham, for example, Job’s wealth consists of his animals
> and his servants (1:3; 42:12; cf. Gen 12:16), and he himself as head of
> his family offers sacrifices without the intervention of any priest (1:5;
> cf. Gen 15:9–10). Like the patriarchs of Genesis, who live 175, 180, 147,
> and 100 years (Gen 25:7; 35:28; 47:28; 50:26), Job lives 140 years
> (42:16). But the narrator is clearly depicting an archaic age and not
> writing of his own time.

I always find statements like this one amusing. What's clear about it? 
Exactly how is it clear?

> "In a search for the date of composition of the book, many have observed
> that the theme of the suffering of the innocent is found also in Jeremiah
> and in the poems of the Suffering Servant of the Lord in Second Isaiah,

Ah yes, good ol' Second Isaiah, yet another hotly contentious topic which he 
glosses over as though this person's existence "stemming from the sixth 
century" is an established fact.

> both of these prophetic texts stemming from the sixth century. Some have
> thought that the inexplicable suffering of Job may have been intended to
> be symbolic of the suffering of the Jews in Babylonian exile in that
> century, and therefore to have been composed at about that period. But
> the author has so convincingly located his narrative in the patriarchal
> world that there are no clear contemporary allusions of any kind to the
> period contemporary with the author.
> "The earliest reference to Job outside the book is found in Ezek 14:14,
> 20, where Job is mentioned along with Noah and Danel (probably not
> Daniel) as an ancient hero. This sixth-century reference may well be,

Again, how does he know that it's "probably not Daniel"? While I tentatively 
agree for reasons of my own, just tossing it out like this seems a bit 
careless.

> however, not to the Book of Job but to a more ancient folktale; so no
> inference about the date of the book can be drawn.

And of course, we have the ever-popular "may well be." It may well be that 
Keebler cookies really are made by elves in a hollow tree, but that doesn't 
establish their origin with any degree of certainty.
[snip]

In reality, he's gotten absolutely nowhere. I'm reminded of a line from the 
old Dick Van Dyke show: "He says things that just sound so - so - that, uh, 
sound vague, but are in reality meaningless."

-- 
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"Well, if I'd wanted a safe life, I guess I wouldn't have 
married a man who studies rocks." - Betty Armstrong (Fay Masterson)
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Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:29:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] OT- perspective (was Josiah's book of the Law)
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On 8/5/05, Harold R. Holmyard III  wrote:
> Dear Yitzhak,
>=20
> >I was wondering, could you name some specific ANE historical source that=
 is
> >not as complete or as honest as the Bible?
>=20
> HH: I think James is referring to the tendency of pharaohs and
> Mesopotamian kings to avoid their failures and battle losses in their
> inscriptions.

Perhaps.  I mean, without a specific inscription I wouldn't know.=20
But, in order to
name such a specific inscription he has to (1) name one, then (2) to
show that we
know that it is not complete, then (3) to show that we know that it is
not honest, then
(4) to show that there is a place in the Bible that is more complete than t=
his
particular source, then (5) to show that that same place in the Bible
is more honest.
(2) and (3) are tricky, but not as tricky as (4) and (5).

> HH: The Bible is not primarily a history book. It is a religious
> book. It mentions historical events as they pertain to the nation's
> relationship with God. Evidently the battle of Qarqar was not chosen
> to highlight aspects of that relationship. James probably meant that
> the Bible was complete in its exposure of its protagonists'
> weaknesses and failures.

I don't think one can be so complete about failings without being similarly=
=20
so complete about strengths.  That would be dishonest.  In any case, it is
not evident that this is why it wasn't chosen.  It is only one possibility,
which may be accepted dependent on certain theological assumptions.

> 1Kings 22:39 Now the rest of the acts of Ahab, and all that he did,
> and the ivory house which he made, and all the cities that he built,
> are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of
> Israel?

Where is "and the empire that he fought?"  Besides building an ivory house,
I don't see any thing that is so different from other kings who didn't
successfully defend against the Assyrian empire. =20

> >Or why does Mesha in the Mesha stele claim he revolted under Omri's son?
> >Does he have some hidden agenda in claiming that?  Is it not possible th=
at
> >the Bible just "slightly corrected" the date of revolt of Mesha so as to
> >"fulfill" the prophecy in 1 Kings 21:28 - 29?
>=20
> HH: Omri was the founder of the dynasty. We all should be familiar
> with the fact that the term "son" can mean grandson or even more
> distant kinship links. So a revolt at the time of Ahab's son would
> fulfill the words of the Mesha stele:

The Mesha stele says: "Omri the king of Israel, and he tortured Moab many
days, for Kemosh has despised his country.  And his son replaced him and=20
said also, "I shall torture Moab!"  ... And Omri inherited the country
of Mehedba,
and resided in it through the rest of his days and through the midst
of his son's
days, 40 years."  This doesn't sound like he is speaking of Omri's grandson=
.

Yitzhak Sapir