Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

I read somewhere that while yhwh was unique to the el shadai that the 
term el was used for many gods both false and true. That while el merely 
describes a title of divinity the name yhwh indentifies that divinity as 
the one and only god of the hebrew. e.g. 'yhwh god of hosts'

El and Yhwh may have been merged as an hypocoristicon. The Qal  of hwh 
(later shifting to Hiph'il in folk etymology) taken from a TITLE phrase as a 
hypocoristicon of EL, ala Albright and Cross.  A title like "El causes 
something to come into being".

Jack 


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Thank you.
It's all coming back to me now. It's years since I did hebrew classes 
but now you mention it I remember the prof saying what you said about 
the vowels before the final he.

I find it interesting that the vowels of eloah follow an identical 
pattern to the proposed yahowah. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk AT qaya.org]
Sent: Wed 7/20/2005 11:44 PM
To: Read, James C
Cc: Uri Hurwitz; b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciation
 
On 20/07/2005 23:11, Read, James C wrote:

>After hearing all the evidences in favour of a bisyllabic Yaho/Yahu 
>pronunciation my curiosity has been much aroused.
>Does anyone know of any examples of a final long o/u vowel with a 
>terminating vocal he?
>Is the pronunciation Yahoh/Yahuh possible?
>Is it possible that the waw only ever stood for a long vowel of 
>type o/u?
>If so, why do names comprising Yaho/Yahu emit the final he?
>
>  
>
A word final vocal he (i.e. he with mappiq) follows the same rule as for 
het and ayin, that it must be preceded by an "a" vowel. So, if there is 
originally another vowel, a "furtive patah" is inserted giving a short 
"a" sound. Thus for example there is the rare word for "God" ELOAH, with 
a furtive patah before the vocal he - and its more common plural form 
ELOHIM, where the furtive patah has disappeared because this is no 
longer the final syllable.

Also Yahoh and Yahuh are impossible because an "a" vowel in that 
position would be shortened to sheva.

So we might expect, rather than Yahoh or Yahuh, Yehoah or Yehuah - where 
"e" represents sheva, and the final "h" is pronounced. These are indeed 
possible pronunciations of YHWH - and, yes, they are trisyllabic.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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Thanx again Yigal. Very helpful and informative.

2. Also, I notice you mentioned that the name was already out of use
during the second temple period. How do we know this?

This has already been discussed in this thread.

Would you mind if asked where? I've had a look but can't find it. 
I would be very interested in getting aquainted with ALL the evidence 
we have at hand.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yigal Levin
Sent: Thu 7/21/2005 12:32 AM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciation
 
RE: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciationHi James,

Presumably, by "Hebrews" you mean Jews. So you want a crash course on 
Judaism. I'll try to answer briefly.

1. Are any of the modern day hebrews able to trace their genealogy?
If so, are there any that have a claim to descending from the
priesthood? And more particularly from high-priesthood?

There are many Jews who claim to trace their genealogies for many 
generations, but very few that can actually prove that they go back to 
antiquity. There are many thousands of Jews who's family traditions claims 
that they are descended from priests or levites. Often, their surnames will 
reflect that - priests called "Cohen" and various variations, Levites called 
"Levi/Levy/ Levin" etc. However, one does not have to be able to trace his 
lineage to make such a claim, and it is agreed that when the Messiah appears, 
we will "set the record straight". I don't know of anyone who claims direct 
descent from the high priesthood.

2. Also, I notice you mentioned that the name was already out of use
during the second temple period. How do we know this?

This has already been discussed in this thread.

3. Does anyone also know when the rise of the pharisees and the saducees
took place? And the beginnings of the attitudes we read about in
the gospels?

The only complete description that we have of the pharisees and the saducees 
is in Josephus, and even that seems simplified. The two groups apparently 
arose during the Hasmonean period, say around 100 BCE, although they 
obviously did not apear out of no-where. As far as the way in which the 
Gospels portray the pharisees, let someone else comment.

4. I was just wondering if you knew the present sentiments
of the hebrew community on the attempts to pronounce or restore
the divine name. 

Orthodox Jews adhere to the dictum that the Name is ineffible and is NEVER to 
be pronounced. Most other Jews do not object in principle, but do follow the 
tradition of adressing God as "Adonai".

Yigal
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Read, James C 
  To: Yigal Levin 
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:02 AM
  Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciation


  Thanx Yigal!

  Are any of the modern day hebrews able to trace their genealogy?
  If so, are there any that have a claim to descending from the
  priesthood? And more particularly from high-priesthood?

  Also, I notice you mentioned that the name was already out of use
  during the second temple period. How do we know this?

  Does anyone also know when the rise of the pharisees and the saducees
  took place? And the beginnings of the attitudes we read about in
  the gospels?

  Also to Yigal. I don't know any hebrews but have found a local
  synagogue and was hoping to benefit from a few visits in the near
  future. I was just wondering if you knew the present sentiments
  of the hebrew community on the attempts to pronounce or restore
  the divine name. Also, do you know the traditional hebrew view on
  the meaning of the name or its relation to Moshe's meeting with
  el shadai on mount sinai?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Yigal Levin
  Sent: Wed 7/20/2005 9:36 PM
  To: b-hebrew
  Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] yhwh pronunciation


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  > I sometimes wonder, but maybe I am just paranoid, if
  > there are modern day Hebrews in high standing who keep
  > the real pronunciation and meaning of yhwh as a closely
  > guarded secret and pass them down from generation to
  > generation to keep them alive.

  As a "modern day Hebrew", I doubt it very much. As has already been noted,
  by the late second temple period, it had become normative to avoid
  pronouncing the name outside the ritually proscribed temple service, and
  when the Temple was destroyed, the pronunciation was lost. This is probably
  what Josephus means.

  As for the use or paleo-Hebrew letters for YHWH in some of the DDS, the
  usual understanding is that this is a sign of the name's special-holy
  status. But I have read suggestions of the opposite - that by using the
  "non-sacred" script, the scribes were attempting to avoid possible
  defilement of the Name.

  Yigal




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Peter noted that:
 I note that the English pronunciation 
Jehovah is similar, consisting of four nominal consonants but in fact 
only three pronounced consonants - because final h is silent in English 
as normally in Hebrew.


I think the silent pronunciation of the final H is more due to our 
inability to pronounce it than anything else, while the parallel is a 
good one. Also notable is the italian pronunciation of Geova, which 
completely drops the also the first h as there is no h sound in the 
italian alphabet and all but the florentines have great difficulty in 
learning how to make a h sound (I'm an English teacher (for my sins)).
Also of interest is the Spanish Jeova, where the J is pronounced as a 
guttural similar to khet and the v is pronounced in a way not dissimilar 
to an english 'b' for an overall pronunciation of xeoba. I think these 
examples go to show the limitations of transliterations and attempts of 
foreign cultures to pronounce foreign words. And therefore help us to 
understand why we see forms like 'iaoua' and 'iabo' in Greek transliterations.
As also the Greek alphabet had difficulty in translating a spirant he
mid-word. Also, research suggests that the pronunciation of waw has 
shifted several times from 'w' to 'v' and vice-versa through the ages.
The 'b' sound is a plosive version of 'v' with almost exactly the same 
mouth movements. I feel that this explains why we see the 'b' in the 
'iabo' transliteration which could be present as an indication of either 
the period it was written in or by the dialect of those who wrote it. In 
much a similar way that the Spanish pronounce the same letter 'v' as a 
near English 'v' or a near English 'b' depending on the word that it is in.

I don't know if all that was followable or made any sense to anyone except 
to me!?!?

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I'm sorry Peter. I didn't realise it was happening.
It must be very confusing trying to decipher what I 
am saying. I wasn't using colour or anything. I was 
just assuming that the little arrows everyone else 
uses would be inserted automagically.
I haven't used these lists before or anything similar 
and I'm still trying to get to grips with their usage.
e.g. I notice in the archives that everyone elses posts 
and replies are staggered in position whereas mine 
allways seem to appear as if they were new topics. 
Haven't got a clue why. 

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On 21/07/2005 00:14, Read, James C wrote:

> Peter noted that:
>  I note that the English pronunciation
> Jehovah is similar, consisting of four nominal consonants but in fact
> only three pronounced consonants - because final h is silent in English
> as normally in Hebrew.
>
>
> I think the silent pronunciation of the final H is more due to our
> inability to pronounce it than anything else, while the parallel is a
> good one. ... And therefore help us to
> understand why we see forms like 'iaoua' and 'iabo' in Greek
> transliterations.
> As also the Greek alphabet had difficulty in translating a spirant he
> mid-word. ...
>
> I don't know if all that was followable or made any sense to anyone except
> to me!?!?
>
>
Yes, James, this does make sense, at least to me as a linguist. Your
explanation of how Hebrew W became Greek beta in IABE etc is good, and
this is good evidence for a pronunciation Ya(h)ve derived from Yahwe;
the Greek forms IAOUE and IAOUAI also clearly support the pronunciation
Yahwe. So Rolf is wrong to state that there is no ancient evidence for
Yahwe.

I am honestly uncertain whether those who advocate the form of the name
"Yehowah" or similar intend that the final he is to be considered as
pronounced or not. I have assumed from their argumentation from the Qere
pointing that they intend a Hebrew form יְהֹוָה,
yod-sheva-he-holam-vav-qamets-he (as actually found in some places in
Hebrew Bibles, but normally understood as a Ketiv with Qere vowels), in
which case the final he would be silent. Now maybe some are arguing that
the actual form is יְהוֹהַּ, yod-sheva-he-vav with holam-furtive 
patah-he
with mappiq. And that is an alternative, in which the final he would be
sounded but the vav would be only a vowel, and so best rendered in
English as Yehoah (or Jehoah) with no v or w.

As for the form Yahweh, this was certainly intended to represent the
form of the name promoted by Gesenius in the 19th century, which was
explicitly יַהְוֶה, yod-patah-he-sheva-vav-segol-he, in which the he 
is a
silent mater. The final h is added in English to suggest a suitable
English pronunciation, but I note that in the English edition of
Gesenius' grammar, GKC section 17c, the English form is spelled Yahwè,
i.e. with a final e grave.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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