Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

really,  shouldn't  one listen to the specialists on the subject, to 
Egyptologists in this case?
 
  One example is the excellent work by K.A. Kitchen,  an eminent 
Egyptologist:  On the Reliability of the Old Testament ;it appeared recently, 
and it will become indispensable for those interested in a subject that is 
indeed outside the scope of this list.
 Uri

Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org> wrote:
On 23/01/2004 09:49, Walter R. Mattfeld wrote:

>I have made some major revisions regarding the identification of some sites
>associated with the "Route of the Exodus." Specifically Succoth, Etham, the
>site of the Red Sea (Yam Suph) crossing, Pi-ha-Hiroth and Migdol. The
>following urls should be consulted if interested. One must read the articles
>"on line" in order to access the accompanying maps.
>
>What's "really new" ? The realization _just today_ (23 Jan. 2004) of why
>Israel described the Red Sea as being a "wall of water" on either side of
>her when she crossed it. The explanation will "surprise" all, cf. the
>following url
>
>http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusRedSeaCrossingMap.html
>
>
>
>
>
>The below urls also should be read
>
>http://www.bibleorigins.net/RouteOfTheExodus.html
>
>http://www.bibleorigins.net/TheRouteOfTheExodusPart2.html
>
>Regards, Walter
>
>Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
>
>www.bibleorigins.net
>
>mattfeld12 AT charter.net
>
>
>
> 
>
Thank you, Walter. I remain interested in these matters, but I don't 
want to get involved in historical controversy on this list.

I note that you use the phrase "wall of water", as do many translations 
in Exodus 15:22,29. We naturally think in terms of Cecil B. de Mille. 
But what does the text actually say? Literally translated (the same in 
both verses):

the water to them a wall from the right and from the left

What does "wall", XOMA, mean in this context? Does it necessarily mean 
something standing up vertically? No. The word is used in several places 
metaphorically, of any form of protection (although admittedly most of 
its 133 uses refer to literal walls). BDB (sorry, Karl) offers the 
following examples of metaphorical XOMOT:

1 Sam 25:16 David's men
Jer 1:18, 15:20 Jeremiah
Song 8:9,10 a woman
Isaiah 26:1 salvation
Zec 2:9 (English v.5) YHWH

...and most tellingly of all:

Nahum 3:8 the water of the Nile, protecting No-Amon/Thebes/Luxor, 
presumably like some kind of moat. (Today the Nile is only one one side 
of Luxor; was the city once on an island?)

So, what do people think? Is it reasonable to understand the text as 
Walter seems to, that the water to the left and the right of the 
Israelites was not so much an upstanding wall as channels of water 
forming a protecting barrier? If so, Walter may well be right about the 
crossing place, following "Le Clerc, Du Bois, Aimé and others".

By the way, Walter, I think you and others miss the point about the idea 
that the sea may once have extended up to the Bitter Lakes. The sea 
would have retreated not so much because its level dropped as because a 
former shallow gulf may have become filled with sand and sediment, with 
the current tidal area where you place the crossing all that remains. 
That is something which can quite easily be checked by geologists. I 
have been in the area in question, by the Suez Canal (and under it in a 
tunnel) just north of Suez, and can testify that it looks very like a 
flat alluvial plain which might have been filled in relatively recently. 
But I can't be sure that this flat plain extends all the way to the 
Bitter Lakes; although the satellite image at 
http://www.redtailcanyon.com/items/6664.aspx suggests that there is at 
least a narrow corridor of green and so low land all the way, and so 
does the fact that the ancients were able to build canals here. See also 
http://www.nrzam.org.uk/Site%20Resources/UnionCastle_odds/SuezCanalSouth.jpg.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
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Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:04:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Route of the Exodus (Red Sea Crossing)
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Peter:

Let’s add that salvation is a wall and praise its gates, Isaiah 60:18.

When looking at the word as a function, city walls functioned as a protective 
barrier from the dangers outside. David and his men fulfilled that function 
to Nabel’s shepherds, it was not metaphorical. The same with all the other 
examples given below. Most of the times the word is used, it refers to 
masonary walls used to fulfill that function.

What makes it difficult is that when one thinks in form, as in the high walls 
surrounding a city, one is left with the Cecil B. deMille picture of standing 
walls of water on each side.

Walter brought up a good point here that I hadn’t thought of before. (Too bad 
he buried it in lengthy articles trying to prove ideas based on suppositions 
with which many disagree. It’s like looking for a needle in a haystack.)

As for No-Amon/Thebes/Luxor, it is very likely that walls formed the 
protective barrier on three sides, while the Nile on the fourth, just like 
many other waterside cities in the past.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>

> On 23/01/2004 09:49, Walter R. Mattfeld wrote:
>
> >
> >What's "really new" ? The realization _just today_ (23 Jan. 2004) of why
> >Israel described the Red Sea as being a "wall of water" on either side of
> >her when she crossed it. The explanation will "surprise" all, cf. the
> >following url
> >
> >http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusRedSeaCrossingMap.html
> >
> >
> >Regards, Walter
> >
> >Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
> >  
> >
> Thank you, Walter. I remain interested in these matters, but I don't 
> want to get involved in historical controversy on this list.
> 
> I note that you use the phrase "wall of water", as do many translations 
> in Exodus 15:22,29. We naturally think in terms of Cecil B. de Mille. 
> But what does the text actually say? Literally translated (the same in 
> both verses):
> 
> the water to them a wall from the right and from the left
> 
> What does "wall", XOMA, mean in this context? Does it necessarily mean 
> something standing up vertically? No. The word is used in several places 
> metaphorically, of any form of protection (although admittedly most of 
> its 133 uses refer to literal walls). BDB (sorry, Karl) offers the 
> following examples of metaphorical XOMOT:
> 
> 1 Sam 25:16 David's men
> Jer 1:18, 15:20 Jeremiah
> Song 8:9,10 a woman
> Isaiah 26:1 salvation
> Zec 2:9 (English v.5) YHWH
> 
> ...and most tellingly of all:
> 
> Nahum 3:8 the water of the Nile, protecting No-Amon/Thebes/Luxor, 
> presumably like some kind of moat. (Today the Nile is only one one side 
> of Luxor; was the city once on an island?)
> 
> So, what do people think? Is it reasonable to understand the text as 
> Walter seems to, that the water to the left and the right of the 
> Israelites was not so much an upstanding wall as channels of water 
> forming a protecting barrier? If so, Walter may well be right about the 
> crossing place, following "Le Clerc, Du Bois, Aimé and others".
> 
> 
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
-- 
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