Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Bill Rea <bsr15 AT cantsl.canterbury.ac.nz>]

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 Karl wrote:-

>
> You aren?t a sailor. Particularly not a commercial sailor in the days of 
> sail.
>
> Naybe a ship sailed a cargo easer than schlepping it overland, but it
> was hardly easy. There was constant work to be done aboard the ship,
> watches to stand, and if the wind didn?t go right, you were expected to
> row. There was seldom an idle moment awake and sleep is often stolen.
> Then there was the danger of being caught out in a storm (I hear those
> in the Mediterranean can come up suddenly, almost without warning) and
> sunk. Once in harbor, the crew was expected to load and unload the ship.
> It doesn?t sound easy to me.

It's supposed to be the view of the writer, not the sailors. For a man
sitting on land looking at a ship going by it *looks* graceful. It may
well a lot of work for the sailors, but the poet isn't the one grinding
the winches.

Bill Rea, Information Technology Dept., Canterbury  University  \_
E-Mail bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz                                </   New
Phone   64-3-364-2331, Fax     64-3-364-2332                   /)  Zealand
Unix Systems Administrator                                    (/'

>
> It sounds a little easier to me, but a snake on bare rock is struggling. He 
> doesn?t find the easy grips to push against that he finds in vegetation and 
> sand. If he miscalculates and the bare rock is high up, it can be fatal.
>
> Of the three, only the flight of the eagle sounds easy, because soaring on 
> thermals and updrafts is the easiest way for a large bird to fly. Come to 
> think of it, it takes so much energy for a large bird like an eagle to fly 
> that they are not found except in places so rich in game so only short 
> flights are needed, or in mountains where there are many updrafts.
>
> If I sound nitpicky, that is what I went through before suggesting (LMH 
> could mean ?unknown? or possibly agreeing with the LXX in saying it means 
> ?youthfulness, period before marriage?, literally, ?in his virginity?.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
>
> >
> > Here's another thought on the verse:  the verse is really about the 
> > fourth,
> > the way of the strong man with the innocent lass.  The speaker is 
> > marvelling
> > at how *easily* he has his way with her comparing his easy manner with the
> > effortless soaring of the eagle, slithering of the snake and progress of a
> > ship.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Bryan
> >
> > B. M. Rocine
> > Living Word Church
> > 6101 Court St. Rd.
> > Syracuse, NY 13206
> >
> > ph: 315.437.6744
> > fx: 315.437.6766
> --
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:17:58 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Proverbs 30:19
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031003191759.12212.qmail AT email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252; format=flowed"
>
> Dear Peter:
>
> I think you?re stretching it.
>
> As far as I know, B- prefix stands only for ?in? and ?by or with in the 
> sense of instrumentality? e.g. ?I hit him with a stick?.
>
> If one wants to do something with someone else, as far as I know the word 
> to use is (M [?im].
>
> A third problem I have is the definition of (LMH [?almah] meaning ?virgin?. 
> If you refer to his action in deflowering her, she is no longer a virgin, 
> which brings up the question what other unpredictable action is he doing IN 
> her so that she is still a virgin? Both the LXX and my proposal get around 
> that problem by using a different definition of (LMH.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
> > >
> > I will risk a charge of sexism by pointing out that young women are just
> > as unpredictable as air, rock and sea conditions, and as young men - and
> > young men's response to young women's unpredictability is just as
> > unpredictable as the responses of eagles, snakes and sea captains. So
> > your analogy gives excellent support for the interpretation of DRK GBR
> > B(LMH as "the way of a man with a girl".
> >
> >
> > --
> > Peter Kirk
> > peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> > peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> > http://www.qaya.org/
> >
> --
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:12:08 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] ancient stone
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031003201208.31020.qmail AT email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> To All:
>
> Here is a photograph of a stone written in what appears to be very ancient 
> Hebrew or very similar Semitic language. It is the top stone on this page. 
> I have seen photographs of this stone elsewhere in books, but this is the 
> only example I know of online.
>
> http://www.viewzone.com/FTscandanavia.html
>
> As far as I know, writing of this time was written boustrophedron and in 
> this particular case, reading left to right, I transliterate the following
>
> L(QBR.Z.LHSR.H(DW.DMYT.LMRT
>
> I think there is a missing dot between L( and QBR.
>
> My translation reads, ?A grave belittles this (music and dance) to cause to 
> turn aside the witness of it, you liken it to bitterness.? (reminding me of 
> Proverbs 14:13)
>
> This fits into two threads we had recently, one where we question the 
> earliest example where a lamad hey verb is changed to a yod and why are 
> there words sometimes written with a final hey and sometimes without.
>
> (As for the site where I found it, the rest of it is rather wierd, I 
> stumbled on it as a result of a Googlewhack. If someone knows a more 
> reputable site where a photograph of this stone appears, I?d rather link 
> there than here. The only reason I dare reference this site at all is 
> because I have seen photographs of this stone in books.)
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
> --
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 23:41:06 -0500
> From: "Jason Hare" <jason AT hareplay.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <006801c38a31$bbe9d400$0200a8c0@computer>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In Deuteronomy 32.37-38, I came across two forms that I thought were odd. I
> did an MTR search, and this is the only ocurrence of either of these words
> in this form:
>
> )LHYMW [elohei/mo] from verse 37
> ZBCYMW [z'vachei/mo] from verse 38
>
> Is there indeed something odd here? I don't recall ever running across forms
> like this before. What would cause them *not* to use the regular -YW [-av]
> ending??
>
> I looked in Rashi, and he commented nothing on the form. He just added this
> in his notes:
> *)LHYMW* $(BDW [*elohei/mu* she'av'du] - *his gods* whom they served
>
> Any pointers?
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:32:56 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031004063256.32297.qmail AT email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Jason:
>
> The question here deals not with the nouns, but with the -MW suffix. There 
> is some controversy about that suffix, has anyone done a study on it?
>
> There are at least 172 verses where words with that suffix are found. Some 
> of the verses have more than one occurrence of the suffix.
>
> Things that I noticed:
> ? the meaning of the suffix could either be plural or singular, though 
> usually plural
> ? it occurs more often in poetry than prose, Deuteronomy 32 is poetry
> ? it is more often attached to a single letter prefix than to a noun or 
> verb e.g. KMW or LMW
> ? where it is plural, it usually refers to a natural group or assemblage, 
> such as a people, tribe
> ? it seems to emphasize the subject of the -MW more so than the noun or 
> prefix it?s appended to
> ? it seems to indicate that very subject, possibly a reflexive emphasis, 
> not a general subject
>
> Does anyone have any corrections or additions to this?
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
> From: "Jason Hare" <jason AT hareplay.com>
>
> > In Deuteronomy 32.37-38, I came across two forms that I thought were odd. 
> > I
> > did an MTR search, and this is the only ocurrence of either of these words
> > in this form:
> >
> > )LHYMW [elohei/mo] from verse 37
> > ZBCYMW [z'vachei/mo] from verse 38
> >
> > Is there indeed something odd here? I don't recall ever running across 
> > forms
> > like this before. What would cause them *not* to use the regular -YW [-av]
> > ending??
> >
> > I looked in Rashi, and he commented nothing on the form. He just added 
> > this
> > in his notes:
> > *)LHYMW* $(BDW [*elohei/mu* she'av'du] - *his gods* whom they served
> >
> > Any pointers?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jason
> --
> __________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 06:57:35 -0400
> From: "Trevor Peterson" <06peterson AT cua.edu>
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "'Hebrew'" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000801c38a66$529faf80$179cfea9@SPEDRSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Karl wrote:
>
> > ? the meaning of the suffix could either be plural or
> > singular, though usually plural ? it occurs more often in
> > poetry than prose, Deuteronomy 32 is poetry
>
> The frequency in poetry may not have much to do with semantics. Since it
> is poetry, we should consider the possibility that it was added for
> sound--to lengthen a form (and thus lengthen a line), perhaps. It could
> also be an archaic or dialectal feature, which tend to hold on in poetry
> longer than in prose.
>
> > ? it is more
> > often attached to a single letter prefix than to a noun or
> > verb e.g. KMW or LMW
>
> There could also be a connection with the longer forms from these
> single-letter prepositions (particularly K), where the -mo- appears
> before the usual suffix. If this is basically the same thing, it's one
> of the most common appearances in prose.
>
> > ? where it is plural, it usually refers
> > to a natural group or assemblage, such as a people, tribe ?
> > it seems to emphasize the subject of the -MW more so than the
> > noun or prefix it?s appended to ? it seems to indicate that
> > very subject, possibly a reflexive emphasis, not a general subject
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this last part. A possessive or object
> suffix is intended to refer to something else, rather than the word to
> which it is attached. Could you give some examples of this emphasis you
> see (and how it differs from other suffixes)?
>
> Trevor Peterson
> CUA/Semitics
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:59:29 -0400
> From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Mesha Stele Transcription
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <003501c38a6e$f7879780$0302a8c0@brocine>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> B-Haveray,
>
> Is there a transcription of the Mesha Stele available on the web into either
> the square Aramaic or a phonetic alphabet from which I may recover the
> original text?
>
> Thanks, Bryan
>
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13206
>
> ph: 315.437.6744
> fx: 315.437.6766
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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