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["Bill Ross" <BillRoss AT norisksoftware.com>]

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Bill Ross
BillRoss AT norisksoftware.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Schmuel [mailto:schmuel AT escape.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:24 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: Re: The OT? - evidence for canon of Hebrew Scriptures by DSS
and Josephus


Shalom b-hebrew,

Thank you Jonathan, this was a nice post, I have one point I would like
to add about the time of the setting of the Hebrew canon

>[JDS} It still does end with Chronicles. Only the order of the books 
>and
>their arrangement are different: I. Torah = 5 Books of Moses II.
Prophets 
>A. Former Prophets 1. Joshua <snip list>

>[JDS] If by canon you mean Holy Scriptures, there has been 100%  
>consensus
>among Jews since the second century CE at the latest. The Samaritans
have 
>only the Torah and an entirely different  and shorter Joshua. As for
laws 
>or commandments, there are none outside the Torah.

Schmuel

"since the second century CE at the latest"

Here I would like to mention the evidence that the canon was fixed
before 
the second century,
which likely refers to the Council at Yavne (Jamnia), 90 AD, and its 
aftermath.....

These are excerpts, modified from a post on Messianic_Apologetic
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/2397

As pointed out, the books in the Masoretic Text canon are the same as
those in the Protestant/Baptist,etc canon, although the order of books
is different.....

====================================================================

Two witnesses for an early Hebrew Bible canon, before Yavne, and 
independent of
  the life of Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity

     A) Dead Sea Scrolls,
     B) Josephus

================================ ===========================
                    JOSEPHUS  (additional quote section below)

(Josephus was far removed from Yavne (Jamnia) and rabbinical council 
influence after the
   little problems he had around 70 AD)

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/deuterocanonical.html
Josephus (about 37 AD - 100 AD), who was a Jewish apologist and
historian, 
contended that the Old Testament Canon was closed by Ezra the prophet.

http://www.xenos.org/essays/canon.htm
    (note, written from a Christain perspective, factual material
stands..) B. Josephus
1)  He wrote twenty years before Jamnia and over 300 years before the
Talmud's
       Tractate Baba Bathra which is used to support the theory of the 
three-part development.
2)   He had the actual Temple scrolls in his possession as a gift from
Titus.
       We would conclude from these facts that Josephus should be 
considered more
        authoritative than the Talmud regarding the first century view
of 
the canon.
3)  Josephus had the same canon we do.
4) He says there were 22 books in the canon of the Old Testament
      (see "Against Apion" 1:8, where he mentions 5 books of Moses, 13 
Prophets, and 4 Writings).
     - This corresponds to our 39 books. He recognized Jer. and Lam. as
one 
book, as he also did
      Judges & Ruth, I Sam. & II Sam., I Kings & II Kings, I Chron. & II

Chron., and Ezra and Esther.
      The 12 Minor Prophets were also recognized as one book, called
"The 
Book of the Twelve."
       He included Daniel in the Prophets instead of in the Writings,
which 
refutes an important part of
       the proof used to support the three-part theory.
5)   Josephus also indicates that there was unbroken succession of
prophets 
from Moses
       to Malachi, and that the histories written since Malachi were not

inspired, because
       there had been no succession of prophets since the time of
Malachi.
====================================================================
                        Dead Sea Scrolls

http://www.xenos.org/essays/canon.htm
....The canon was known and immediately recognized as scripture as it 
developed in each generation.
A. Dead Sea Scroll Evidence
1) The Manual of Discipline & Zadokite Fragments quote from Isaiah,
     Deut., Numbers, Leviticus, and Proverbs with the formula "It is
written."
2)  Zadokite uses the formula "God said" for Isaiah, Malachi, Amos,
      Zechariah, Hosea, Deut., Numbers and Micah.
3) The Commentary on Habakkuk indicates that it was considered to be
inspired.
4) The apocryphal books are quoted also, but never with one of the above

formulae.
5) Conclusion: This evidence disproves the liberal theory that the canon

was solidified in a series of
     three steps: the Pentateuch accepted as scripture by 400 BC, the 
Prophets by 200 BC, and the
      Writings not accepted until the Council of Jamnia, in 90 AD. The
Dead 
Sea Scrolls quote from all
      three divisions as scripture and refer to all three as "the Law
and 
the Prophets" or "Moses and the
      Prophets."
=================================================================
                   Miscellaneous Commentary  (nicely put together by
James 
Patrick Holding)

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_05_01_01.html
Leiman argues that Josephus' description here indicates a canon that has

been decided upon and closed for quite some time, for he says: "...for 
although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to
add, 
or to remove, or to alter a syllable." Josephus' Roman readers would
have 
been able to "check out" such an extraordinary claim. [Leim.CHS, 33]

The same number of books is testified to by the Bryennius List and the 
canon of Epiphanus, both dated to near the time of Josephus; and 4 Ezra
(c. 
100 AD) lists 24, likely having Ruth and Lamentations separated. 
[Shank.UDS, 301; Beck.OTNT, 119] (To be fair, we should note that some 
would argue, as MacDonald does [MacD.FormCB, 56], that to combine Ruth
and 
Judges, and Lamentations with Jeremiah, to reach 22, is without basis, 
other than these later witnesses such as Eusebius; and that it is rather

bold to equate Josephus' 22 books with our present OT canon. However, 
MacDonald offers no better alternative; if nothing else, we may suggest 
that perhaps Josephus' 22 books comes from the exclusion of 2 of the
OT's 
most disputed books, Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs; and a bit 
inconsistently, MacDonald allows that the 24-book collection of 4 Ezra
was 
"likely" to have been the same as our current OT, although he will not 
state that it was definitely those 24 books!)

Often cited as a concrete step in the OT canonization procedure is the 
Council of Jamnia. But this seems to have been more a discussion group
or 
college confirming what was already known rather than a canon council. 
[Beck.OTNT, 276] In terms of the canon, the most that Jamnia did was
ratify 
"what the most spiritually sensitive souls in Judaism had been
accustomed 
to regard as being Scripture." [Metz.Apoc, 8]
============================================================
  JOSEPHUS QUOTE

http://www.bible-history.com/JewishLiterature/JEWISH_LITERATUREThe_Old_T
estament_Canon.htm
Josephus considered the Old Testament Canon as fixed from the days of 
Artaxerxes, time of Ezra. Here are his words:

"We have but 22 books, containing the history of all time, books that
are 
believed to be divine. Of these, 5 belong to Moses, containing his laws
and 
the traditions of the origin of mankind down to the time of his death.
>From 
the death of Moses to the reign of Artaxerxes the prophets who succeeded

Moses wrote the history of the events that occurred in their own time,
in 
13 books. The remaining 4 books comprise hymns to God and precepts for
the 
conduct of human life. From the days of Artaxerxes to our own times
every 
event has indeed been recorded; but these recent records have not been 
deemed worthy of equal credit with those which preceded them, on account
of 
the failure of the exact succession of prophets. There is practical
proof 
of the spirit in which we treat our Scriptures; r, although so great an 
interval of time has now passed, not a soul has ventured to add or to 
remove or to alter a syllable; and it is the instinct of every Jew, from

the day of his birth, to consider these Scriptures as the teaching of
God, 
and to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to lay down his life
in 
their behalf."
This testimony is of no small value. Josephus was born A.D. 37 in 
Jerusalem, of priestly aristocracy. He received an extensive education
in 
Jewish and Greek culture. He was governor of Galilee and military
commander 
in the wars with Rome, and was present at the destruction of Jerusalem.

These words of Josephus are unquestionable testimony to the belief of
the 
Jewish nation of Jesus' day as to what books comprised the Hebrew 
Scriptures, and that that collection of books had been completed and
fixed 
for 400 years preceding his time.

(As to the "22" books of Josephus see Bible History Online.)
==================================
  GOOD SUMMARY OF MANY ISSUES

http://www.webwitness.org.au/ss2.html -

  This fixity exactly mirrors in advance, because it relays from the
past 
what was already there, the words of Christ in Matthew 5:17-19. There
was 
no doubt about the Old Testament canon
<snip for brevity>

====================================================================
Romans 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of
circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles 
of God.
====================================================================

>[JDS] In the Mishna, one finds the following terms used to describe the
>Jewish Bible or Tanakh: kitvei haQodesh (Holy Scriptures), 24 Sefarim 
>(the24 Books).
>
>[JDS] <snip> Testament = Covenant, treaty.  <snip>

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY


schmuel AT escape.com

Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe AT yahoogroups.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/


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