Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried AT umich.edu>]

I think Randall is right, and it also explains why the issue

rarely came up for me in my study of biblical Hebrew.

I studied *modern* Hebrew first, way before I ever began

to study Biblical Hebrew. I learned the pattern of the vowels

just as part of the language without the nikudot.

But I should learn the rules, if I'm going to teach the stuff.

lIz

 

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: Trevor & Julie Peterson [mailto:06peterson AT cua.edu]
Sent: Mon, January 07, 2002 5:41 AM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: RE: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

Just keep in mind in your analysis that the shva can be counted as closing a syllable (so-called "silent" shva) or as the vowel in a syllable. So knowing whether the syllable is closed or not is another tricky variable. The two coincide (the double use of the shva and the double use of the qamets) to create some difficult situations. Where the meteg is used the matter is settled, but it's not consistent. Randall is right, though. You do have to know the forms--maybe not well enough to read completely without vowels, but at least well enough to tell the difference, for instance, between a feminine verb form with a qamets-shva from vowel reduction retaining the a-class significance without stress and an infinitive with an unstressed o-vowel.

 

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisbeth S. Fried [mailto:lizfried AT umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 11:19 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: RE: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

OK, duly chastened. Going back to the Weingreen definition,

a closed syllable is one that ends in a consonant, no?

The Massoretes kindly tell you what syllable is accented.

So then, it's not so hard, just determine if the syllable ends in

a consonant, and if so, is it accented. If closed and unaccented,

it must be an o.

Very interesting, so just looking at Isaiah 43 at random here,

you have in 43:7 kol written as a separate word with a holom (defective),

and then in 43:9, just a few lines below, you have kol with a qameC Hatup.

This one has a maqqep to the next word. So in the first case it stands

alone and is accented, so a holom is used. In the second case it is joined

to the following word, and is unaccented, and closed, so a qameC Hatup.

So there you are.

So, how did the Maaoretes decide when to use a maqqep, and when not?

The word is always going to be pronounced kol.

Anyway, perusing the text for more examples ... .

I don't suppose a final heh would count as a consonant at

the end of the syllable. That's just a matres lexiones.

OK. So I guess now I know. Thanks! That was good.

Liz

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor & Julie Peterson [mailto:06peterson AT cua.edu]
Sent: Sun, January 06, 2002 10:15 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: RE: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

Yikes! Actually it turns up more often than you seem to think. I would say that the majority of uses of qamets tend to be a-class, but there are still quite a few o-class. Notable examples are narrative forms of II-vav roots like vayyaqom and some infinitive forms. As for when it matters, I would think knowing how to read a language aloud is generally a good thing (considering that language is more than marks on a page). It's also helpful in knowing how to recognize transcribed forms and knowing how to properly analyze the morphology and phonology of a word.

 

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisbeth S. Fried [mailto:lizfried AT umich.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 5:38 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: RE: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

Arent'  there only a few words in which the qamets is pronounced like a holom?

(Is that what we're talking about here?)
If so, can't one just learn the list? qol is one. I think it's a small list.

I remember breaking my head over this in beginning Hebrew, and then just

deciding that if I ever was going to read torah from the bima, I'd just get a tape.

When else does it matter anyway?????

I'll wait for the flames.

Liz

-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor & Julie Peterson [mailto:06peterson AT cua.edu]
Sent: Sun, January 06, 2002 5:28 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: RE: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

I don't know that this actually answers the original question. Since a shva can have two different functions, determining whether the syllable is open or closed can get tricky.

 

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

-----Original Message-----
From: Polycarp66 AT aol.com [mailto:Polycarp66 AT aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 5:13 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: Re: Qames or Qames-Hatuph

In a message dated 1/6/2002 9:59:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, hebrew2day AT hotmail.com writes:

When the vowel sign for (Qames or Qames-Hatuph) is right before a sheva ,
how does one know if the vowel is a Qames or Qames-Hatuph?
Also please list some extra rules if they apply.

Weingreen (p. 12) states,

"Since the vowel-sign [omitted] is used to represent both Qames 'a' and Qames-Hatuph 'o', we have to determine when it is (long) 'a' and when (short) 'o'.  The rule enunciated on p. 7 is her applied thus:--If the vowel-sign [omitted] occurs in a closed unaccented syllable it must be short and is therefore (short) 'o' = Qames-Hatuph.  If, on the other hand, it occurs in an open syllable, or in a syllable which, though closed, is accented, then it is long and therefore (long) 'a' = Qames. [Examples omitted]

gfsomsel ---

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