Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Jonathan Bailey <jonathan.bailey AT gmx.de>]

I apologize for my tone and castigation.

I did, however, read your post twice before responding, merely for the fact 
that my
understanding of what you were trying to say was so hard to believe. Now 
after my
broader sweeping remarks, I did respond in detail to some of your statements,
namely: "For example 'during David's reign we have no sure evidence of either 
the
Egyptian system or of alphabetic writing' (ABD vi 1005)" The answer to this 
question
is that alphabetic writing was present in Israel within a time very close to 
David with
the Gezer calender, and if everybody else was using alphabetic writing 
hundreds of
years before David, why would writing in Canaan not be present? The
misunderstanding lies in the fact that I did not know that you were referring 
to Israelite
society as some sort of closed system.

So what is your standard for evidence for a literate society? Do you want 
hundreds of
sherds of clay pots with entire historical annals written on them? The 
culture just
didn't write on indestructable materials. And if Moses really was a "Prince 
of Egypt",
then you DO have to think about the fact that Egyptians were writing for 
centuries.
Yeah, you can argue the uncounted effects of Egypt and Babylon to a late 
date, only
to arrive at the implausible conclusion that writing somehow swept over the 
whole
ANE, but just missed Canaan (or actually Israel. It was all over Canaan). It 
wouldn't be
anything new, as the Israelite culture and the bible is constantly being 
attributed
characteristics that are never applied to any other culture or work.

But sorry about reacting too boldly. I would maintain that your post 
genuinely was
unclear, however, as I was not the only one to point out early writing to you.

---------- Original Message ----------

>Jonathan

>I would suggest that you be more careful in your reading of posts before
>castigating me, you have misrepresented what I have said in your knee jerk
>reaction, I have not claimed that writing is young or that alphabetic
>writing does not precede David, what I am basically postulating is that as
>the biblical stories are primarily the history of a specific people and a
>specific states/states, that a certain level of Literacy has to have been in
>existence, within that people/state.  Egypt, Mesopotamia, even Generic
>Canaan have nothing to do with the evolution of the Israelite corpus, apart
>>from obvious borrowings, all of which can be argued to a late date.

>Because we have a few examples of Alphabetic script, does not attest to a
>level of literacy or of a national literary work.

>In Egypt and Mesopotamia, writing was originally used as a commercial tool,
>the beginnings of widespread literacy and of the development of a literary
>tradition took a long  time.  Writing was not invented on Monday and
>national histories written on Tuesday!

>To postulate the formation of the state as the catalyst for the eventual
>formation of 'that states' written history seems to me consistent with other
>cultures.

>If my post (repeated below) displayed some lack of clarity, I apologize, but
>a reading of it
>I feel clearly Implies that I am talking about Literacy and writing in
>Israel and not the ANE in general.

>Noel O'Riordan
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jonathan Bailey <jonathan.bailey AT gmx.de>
>To: Biblical Hebrew <b-hebrew AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Sent: 24 January 2000 07:41
>Subject: Re[2]: "Post-Exilic" Genesis (long)

>>In relation to the Evolution of texts and the theory of a Mosaic, or
>>contemporary, authorship, what are the opinions about the existence or
>>non-existence of a scribal school that had to have existed in order to pass
>>on the words of Moses, and to continue the history as the events happened.
>>in other words who wrote these texts?  For example 'during David's reign we
>>have no sure evidence of either the Egyptian system or of alphabetic
>>writing' (ABD vi 1005)  Surely in order to promulgate the texts then a
>>literary tradition of schools etc had to have existed and this would imply
>>organized state structures.  There appears to be some evidence of schooling
>>in 8th-7th century B.C. but this would have been when a semblance of a
>state
>>existed.  What about the proceeding 700 years.  Who wrote recorded and
>added
>>to these stories?

>>It seems logical to think that literacy is tied to state which sees a
>>terminus a quo of at least the 8th century for the texts.
>>.Noel O Riordan

>> This is primitive Wellhausenism. We have the Hebrew Geza Calender from the
>10th
>> century. We have a Phonecian alphabetic tradition even earlier. We have a
>13th
>> century Ugaritic tradition. Alphabetic writing certainly precedes David.
>And who said
>> the texts had to be preserved alphabetically? We have cuneiform back to
>the 3rd
>> millenium. And I am no egyptologist, but I think heiroglyphics are proven
>to go way
>> back.
>>
>> The notion that writing is young, therefore government is young, therefore
>the texts
>> are young, is wacky 19th century fantasy born out of pure ignorance.
>Writing is OLD.
>> Alphabetic or otherwise. And so is government.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "If there are many wisemen in a city, this means that the city will soon
>fall."
>> Babylonian proverb
>>
>> Jonathan Bailey
>> Hochschule für Jüdische Studien
>> Heidelberg
>> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Column/9707/index.html
>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>
>> >In relation to the Evolution of texts and the theory of a Mosaic, or
>> >contemporary, authorship, what are the opinions about the existence or
>> >non-existence of a scribal school that had to have existed in order to
>pass
>> >on the words of Moses, and to continue the history as the events
>happened.
>> >in other words who wrote these texts?  For example 'during David's reign
>we
>> >have no sure evidence of either the Egyptian system or of alphabetic
>> >writing' (ABD vi 1005)  Surely in order to promulgate the texts then a
>> >literary tradition of schools etc had to have existed and this would
>imply
>> >organized state structures.  There appears to be some evidence of
>schooling
>> >in 8th-7th century B.C. but this would have been when a semblance of a
>state
>> >existed.  What about the proceeding 700 years.  Who wrote recorded and
>added
>> >to these stories?
>>
>> >It seems logical to think that literacy is tied to state which sees a
>> >terminus a quo of at least the 8th century for the texts.
>>
>> >Best regards
>> >Noel O Riordan
>>
>>
>>
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