Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Jonathan Bailey <jonathan.bailey AT gmx.de>]

---------- Original Message ----------

>In reply to Mr. Washburn's most recent comments challenging my position that
>Genesis is a fifth century BCE creation I have assembled a list of what I
>consider to be "historical markers" indicating Genesis was not written by
>Moses in the 15th century BCE as he maintains:

I noticed that nobody wanted to put forth the effort to answer your questions 
one by
one. While I would agree with them that one or two fundamental flaws in your
reasoning have set you off researching on a bogus trail, I thought I would 
answer your
questions in detail.

>Please note that all these "markers" are not of the 2nd millenium BCE, they
>are of the 1st millenium BCE:

>Cities:

>Calah, of no importance till the 9th century when it becomes a capital of
>Assyria.
>Nineveh, becomes a capital 705-612  BCE and thereupon achieves "world
>renoun".

Actually, these cities must have achieved some importance during the second
millennium, as they are mentioned in the Torah, a 2nd millennium document. 
(See
where I am going with this?)

>Nations (Peoples):

>Gomer (Assyrian Gimirraa) appear for the first time on the historical scene
>in Assyrian records of the 8th-7th centuries BCE, terrorizing Anatolia,
>Ararat, Media and Assyria.

Actually, Gomer appears for the first time on the historical scene in 
Genesis, a 2nd
millenium document. (See my point?)

>Media takes on no importance till the 9th,8th and 7th centuries BCE when she
>struggles against Assyria.

Though Genesis doesn't make them out to be terribly important, they were 
worthy
enough to be mentioned in Genesis, a 2nd milennium document. (Get it?)

>Magog, has been suggested by some scholars to be Assyrian mat-Guggu (the
>land of Gog, alluding to Gyges of Lydia), if they are correct, this is a 7th
>century BCE marker.



>Meshech, Assyrian Mushki, makes its first appearance historically in
>Assyrian annals of Tiglath-Pileser I (ca. 1100 BCE)

No, their first appearance would be Genesis.

>Tubal, Assyrian Tabal, mentioned in Sargon's annals ca. 706 BCE.

Good. Also mentioned in Genesis.

>Lud or Lydia is unknown to the Assyrians before Asshurbanipal's time, the
>7th century BCE.

Wrong. Known to the 2nd millenium author of Genesis.

>Put (Lybia) is first attested in Neo-Babylonian documents of the 7th century
>BCE.

Nope. First attested to in Genesis in the 2nd milennium.

>Heth, the Hittites is derived from Assyrian "Khatte," a designation of the
>later Persian Abar Nahar region which includes Canaan (p.407, Redford).

See the discussion about Ur to see how names of tribes, cities, and peoples 
walzed
around the historical map. Just how the Persians came to call the Abar Nahar 
region
a name based on the 2nd milennium Hittites is unknown, and a topic for further
speculation.

>Pathrusim (in Egypt) is common in the form cited (i.e., with the article)
>only in Demotic from 600 BCE onwards (cf. p.406, and note 49, Redford).

Nope. Also Genesis.

>"Saris," an Egyptian title (Ge.37:36) according to Redford (p.425), may have
>been introduced when Egypt was under Assyrian rule, it is attested though
>only in the Persian period, the 6th century BCE.

I would revise this speculation based on the fact that we have a 2nd millenium
Hebrew text. The semitic origin of saris may not have come from the 
Assyrians, but
rather from the Hebrews in Egypt in the 2nd millenium. And don't forget that 
Genesis
is our first marker.

>Personal names:

>Moses is derived from Egyptian affix, -mose, as in Thutmose, Amenmose, in
>the New Kingdom it was pronounced -mase, and in the first millennium -mose,
>but Redford notes the sibilant entered the Hebrew no later than the 8th
>century BCE (p.418, Redford).

Now let's not get too hung up on silibants. Remember, we are dealing with 
Tiberian
vocalisation in Hebrew and we still don't know the vowels of Middle Egyptian. 
I think it
is safe to say that Moses is of egyptian origin, but quibbling over exact 
pronunciations
is senseless.

>Cain, Hebrew qayin, is suspected by some scholars to be derived from the Old
>South Arabic, qyn,  meaning a smith (as in a metal-smith). This root
>appearing as qyn, is attested only in the first millenium, as the title of
>an administrator. The earliest attested use as a personal name is qynw
>(Qainu), a Qedarite (biblical Kedar) dated to circa 450 BCE (pp.24-25,
>Hess). Hess concludes that if qyn is the onomastic background to Hebrew
>qayin, then Cain could be dated to the latter half of the first millenium,
>i.e., after 500 BCE (p.35, Hess).Hess does note Cain might be derived from
>qinah, "song", but qinah does not appear in a qatil form (p.25).

I personally believe that the exact morphology of Cain is lost in the foggy 
annals of
Proto-Semitic. Since we are dealing with tiberian vocalisation and persian 
matres
lectionis, I would say that q and n are fairly certain. We don't know what 
language
Cain's name was originally in, or how it was pronounced, or if our 
tiberian/persian
Hebrew is faithful to that. So going back to what we really KNOW, I would say 
that q
and n come from q"n"y, which fits really well with the sense of the text ("I 
have
gotten...").

>Japheth, associated with the Greek Titan Iapetos by some scholars, is
>unattested outside the Bible until he appears for the first time in the
>works of  Homer and Hesiod, dated variously between the 9th-8th centuries
>BCE.

Iapetos looks exactly like a Greek mutation of something that existed 
hundreds, if not
thousands of years before Homer.

>Nimrod, from a root, mrd,  meaning "we will rebel," is unattested in West
>Semitic onomastica. It occurs in later Palmyrene (mrd) and epigraphic South
>Arabic inscriptions (p.74, Hess), that is, after 500 BCE. If Nimrod is a
>deliberate distortion of the Assyrian warrior-god Ninurta, then the period
>could be much earlier.

Walter, West Semitic paleographic sources are rare as a rule. Don't expect to 
find
everything you want in them.

>Serug is attested in 7th century BCE in texts from the Harran area as uru
>sa-ru-gi (p.85, Hess).

Good. Also attested in Torah from the 2nd millenium.

>Hess concluded that many of the names found in Genesis (not listed by me)
>could be attested in 2nd millenium texts, but he also noted that some of the
>names are attested only in first millenium texts, and some were quite late,
>after 500 BCE.

Translation: "anything could be anywhere."





"If there are many wisemen in a city, this means that the city will soon 
fall."
Babylonian proverb

Jonathan Bailey
Hochschule für Jüdische Studien
Heidelberg
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Column/9707/index.html