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  • From: "sals3" <sals3@cox.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
  • Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:58:21 -0700

I heard they use round up in permaculture now GMOs the taking of a gene from any living thing transgenic and changing the dna of life on earth not knowing or caring what happens as they can not control them. I hate the fact that I can plant organic sweet corn and thanks to these guys get GMO insecticide corn. some parts of permaculture I don't like . still there is a lot about permaculture I do like. . to me I see these gene jockeys can't control their man made abominations. . that's the problem with transgenic engineered lab made life the way I see it. all this talk about virus and natural gene mixing is not the same to me but that is the argument they give us. its almost natural or this happens in nature all the time. to me that is bs most these genes would never mix in real life.. and they cannot control these man made life forms .
----- Original Message ----- From: "Cory Brennan" <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?


The person who developed the microbes for microbetech is Hugh Muir, son of the naturalist John Muir. He comes from his father's tradition of "do no harm" to the natural world. Microbe remediation is similar to remediation by fungi and works on the same principles. The microbes are not modified - they are encased in organic solutions that help them stay in the system long enough to gain a foothold and do their work. They are naturally occurring microbes, that are hand picked because of the functions they wear in the system, just like inoculants. Which is worse? A monocrop field that has been robbed of almost all soil life and must be artificially force fed to grow anything, or using microbes to start the process of a healthy system?

Why is it ok to bring fungi into an area but not microbes? As Toby says, microbes are constantly evolving. They do well when there is a balance in the system and mutually beneficial connection amongst many elements. When we bring nitrogen fixer inoculants into a system, these are microbes brought in from outside. When we import soil or organic material, we are bringing in outside microbe systems that may have been altered by man's interference. These things tend to sort themselves out in a healthy system, such as an intact wetlands.

The best thing to do would probably be to go to one of the places microbe remediation is used and see how the ecosystem is doing, years later. Microbes cleaned up an almost totally toxic Sea of Japan and allowed the fishing industry to survive. They have accomplished miracles in cleaning up toxic waste in ecosystems when used with care and responsibility.

It seems that is the key, how responsible are the parties? These guys seem very, very idealistic and ethical to me - they love the earth and want it to survive with beauty. I am not a microbiologist or genetic expert, so have to go with what I've seen, what I've thoughtfully observed, what I do know, and some gut instinct.

Cory




--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 7:45 PM
As a former geneticist, I'm sure you
would know far better than I, but is
there actually money available for exploring things like
petroleum-eating
microbes? There's a pretty narrow range of "benefits" that
have come out of
GM thus far -- at least in crop science -- and even those
few have only come
in areas where corporations like Monsanto and DuPont have
poured tens of
millions of dollars. My concern is that GM techniques are
costly enough to
implement that it's only the uber-rich and uber-powerful
(aka evil
corporations) who can wield these tools. At least that's my
impression. Is
it realistic to expect research funding for more benign
uses of GM
techniques? I'm not intimately aware of happenings in the
field -- maybe
this sort of thing is already happening?

-Ben

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>wrote:

> As a former geneticist, I want to point out that
nature transfers genes
> between species, between families, even between phyla
and kingdoms. It was
> viruses that taught geneticists how to do it; viruses
move genes between the
> most distantly related organisms with great frequency
and ease, making the
> genetically engineered tomato with a fish gene look
like child's play.
> Nature is far ahead of us in the breeding world, and
is doing things we can
> barely dream of.
>
> It makes no more sense to condemn genetic engineering
itself than it does
> to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a tool. A
permaculturist doesn't
> rule out a tool simply because of its origin; if we
did we wouldn't use
> hammers, computers, or anything else that's a product
of an unsustainable
> culture. The techniques of genetic modification are
not evil; it's the
> godawful stupid things they do with them that are the
evil. If we can talk
> about using technical solutions like hair mats and
mycelium to clean up oil
> spills (with all their pluses and minuses), then we
ought to include GMO
> microbes that eat oil in the toolkit. None of them is
going to solve the oil
> problem, but while we work on the technical level, we
work on other levels
> too.
>
> My sense is that activism, even Jensen's violent kind,
isn't going to bring
> civilization down--and I like Derrick a lot, and I
speak as an activist. The
> elites are much better at violence than anyone else. I
think oil will just
> get too scarce, and the crash will solve a lot of
those problems. I just
> hope it happens soon enough.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2010, at 4:50 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps you can share your research sources
on each statement about the
> microbes so each of us can pursue that. Also, even if
an organism has NOT
> been genetically engineered as in splicing, a few
"non-gmo" breeding
> techniques would never occur in Nature without humans
forcing them to
> happen, and thus also bear dangerous potential.
> >> Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:59:18 -0700
> >> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill -
solutions?
> >>
> >> Oil eating microbes die when the oil is gone.
The oil, on the other
> hand, sticks around in one form or other and keeps on
killing. They are now
> using toxic stuff that sinks it to the bottom of the
ocean. I guess out of
> sight, out of mind... The company I am most familiar
with uses only existing
> microbes, they are not GM at all.
> >>
> >> Cory
> >>
> >> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >>
> >>> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill -
solutions?
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:13 PM
> >>>
> >>> Aren't a lot of those oil-eating microbes
genetically
> >>> modified? That would be cutting off our
nose to spite our
> >>> face.
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 20:50:49 -0700
> >>>> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> >>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill
- solutions?
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm checking with a friend of mine
who creates microbe
> >>> formulas to see if he has one for this
problem. Some
> >>> microbes do eat oil, just need to assess
the entire process
> >>> and all waste products, consequences,
etc. Tailored,
> >>> cultured microbes might be best for this
job. Anybody know
> >>> of any other organizations that might be
able to handle
> >>> that? Application will definitely
be something to
> >>> solve.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cory
> >>>>
>
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