Pleurothallid-l mailing list

["Horak, David" <DavidHorak@bbg.org>]

Hey Carol,

First, I will be in touch later on another item but are you sure that your 
plant is labeled Pleurothallis chocoensis; there is no Pleuro. species by 
that name and it probably is the Restrepia.

You are right; chocoensis is a pretty easy grower. My question was a bit 
loaded in that there are at least 3 AOS awards to chocoensis, with different 
clonal names - all of which are almost certainly the same clone. For a very 
long time, all the pieces of this species in people's collections were 
ostensibly divisions of the original collection. That is a peripheral judging 
issue but I was curious about whether seedlings have been produced. Laurent, 
are you certain that Ecuagenera has produced seedlings or  could it be they 
are selling divisions? I haven't checked with Pepe or Ivan.

As for the regia vs. scobina question, here at BBG we ostensibly have two 
regia from different sources and two or three scobina from Ecuagenera. In 
bloom they are all very similar in appearance at least superficially. I would 
have to say the J&L clone, which is more likely to be what is construed as 
regia, has a slightly wider synsepal. Right now I do not have the ability to 
take a closer look at the lips, etc. but will eventually- Laurent, thank you 
for your response.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: pleurothallid-l Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1
      (czoltowski@sbcglobal.net)
   2. Re: Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella regia (Minet Laurent)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:52:36 +0000
From: czoltowski@sbcglobal.net
To: pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [pleurothallid-l] pleurothallid-l Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1
Message-ID:
        
<418228409-1408999847-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1611001138-@b25.c7.bise6.blackberry>

Content-Type: text/plain

I have a Pleuro chocoensis.  It came from Marni Turkel.  I don't know where 
she obtained it.  Mine is quite happy and grown easily.
Carol Zoltowski
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:44:08
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Subject: pleurothallid-l Digest, Vol 56, Issue 1

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Today's Topics:

   1. masd Measuriana (Frogpondphrags@aol.com)
   2. Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella regia (Horak, David)
   3. Re: Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella regia (Minet Laurent)
   4. Re: Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella regia (geiger)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 15:53:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frogpondphrags@aol.com
To: pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [pleurothallid-l] masd Measuriana
Message-ID: <620fd.5c66522e.409e8c24@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I was given a lovely masdevallia measuriana.  I am unable to find information 
regarding this specie, although goggle provided a photography of the white 
flower.  I assume the plant has been renamed and would be grateful  for more 
information. .
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:35:46 -0400
From: "Horak, David" <DavidHorak@bbg.org>
To: "pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org"
        <pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [pleurothallid-l] Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella regia
Message-ID:
        <E5B433D384461A4B88B48068709ACD3D902BFF03AA@jardin.home.bbg.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

There hasn't been any action on the list in a while so, perhaps someone can 
help with a couple of questions:

1 - Restrepia chocoensis was known from a single collection for a very long 
time and - as I understand it - self infertile; I know that a second plant  
was purportedly found some time in the recent past. Does anyone know when the 
second plant was found; if there have been any successful outcrosses with the 
original, and if so are progeny now available?

2 - What are the morphological distinctions between Trisetella regia and 
scobina? I do not have access to the green books and am curious.

Dave Horak
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:34:25 +0100
From: Minet Laurent <laurentminet@yahoo.fr>
To: "pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org"
        <pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [pleurothallid-l] Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella
        regia
Message-ID:
        <1408991665.8460.YahooMailNeo@web172606.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Dave

here is my contribution to your questions:

Ecuagenera do have R. chocoensis from flasked seeds. whether they're from a 
succesful selfing, or from an outcross, is a question I can't answer.

The difference between T. scobina & regia lies in the number of calli/keels 
on the lip. One species has 3, while the other has 4. That's what I read in 
the Icones. I've both species, and will probably, someday, dissect one flower 
from each to check if my plants are correctly labelled. In the meantime, I've 
just harvested pods of scobina x regia. From their distribution maps, it 
seems they're quite recently isolated populations of a common ancestor.
Laurent


Le Lundi 25 ao?t 2014 19h50, "Horak, David" <DavidHorak@bbg.org> a ?crit :



There hasn?t been any action on the list in a while so, perhaps someone can 
help with a couple of questions:
?
1 - Restrepia chocoensis was known from a single collection for a very long 
time and ? as I understand it ? self infertile; I know that a second plant? 
was purportedly found some time in the recent past. Does anyone know when the 
second plant was found; if there have been any successful outcrosses with the 
original, and if so are progeny now available?
?
2 - What are the morphological distinctions between Trisetella regia and 
scobina? I do not have access to the green books and am curious.
?
Dave Horak
_______________________________________________
pleurothallid-l mailing list
pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pleurothallid-l
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:14:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: geiger <geiger@vetigastropoda.com>
To: pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [pleurothallid-l] Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella
        regia
Message-ID:
        <1614526640.2695925.1408997640946.open-xchange@bosoxweb03.eigbox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

3 vs. 4 calli?!? hmmm, what is the sample size? Flowers on plant, plants, 
same plant-different years/culture conditions? How tightly does that 
correlate with geography? I am extremely skeptical of taxa with very limited 
ranges/sample-sizes and rather limited differentiation. Recent separation of 
one person is infraspecific variability of another. I admit, I am a "lumper": 
unless it is clearly separate, it is the same. I am not afraid of naming 
species based on very few specimens, or even one: e.g., Depressizona 
axiosculpta Geiger, 2009, but then the differences must be in your face.

Also, that crosses are possible has two faces: either it is a recent 
separation, and there still is interfertility. However, evolutionary theory 
would predict strong separating mechanism (positive Darwinian selection) 
particularly in sympatric conditions or with secondary contact (positive 
reinforcement). If the latter view is taken, then the interfertility suggests 
conspecificity, unless one postulates strong pre-zygotic isolating mechanisms 
(changes in pollinators; different flowering seasons, ?), but that is a steep 
hill to climb. Also allopatry and range extension are two explanations of the 
same observation.

I've been looking at calli in Oberonia with SEM, and there is quite a bit of 
infraspecific variability. My 2c of rather pleurothallid-ignorant thoughts. I 
have not seen the green books, and just go off the "3 vs. 4" morsel. I don't 
want to fault Laurent-the-messenger for it, but I would suggest critical 
reading of anything that is published.

Best wishes

Daniel


> On August 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM Minet Laurent <laurentminet@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>  Hi Dave
>
>  here is my contribution to your questions:
>
>  Ecuagenera do have R. chocoensis from flasked seeds. whether they're
> from a succesful selfing, or from an outcross, is a question I can't answer.
>
>  The difference between T. scobina & regia lies in the number of
> calli/keels on the lip. One species has 3, while the other has 4.
> That's what I read in the Icones. I've both species, and will
> probably, someday, dissect one flower from each to check if my plants
> are correctly labelled. In the meantime, I've just harvested pods of
> scobina x regia. From their distribution maps, it seems they're quite 
> recently isolated populations of a common ancestor.
>  Laurent
>
>
>  Le Lundi 25 ao?t 2014 19h50, "Horak, David" <DavidHorak@bbg.org> a ?crit :
>
>
>  There hasn?t been any action on the list in a while so, perhaps
> someone can help with a couple of questions:
>
>  1 - Restrepia chocoensis was known from a single collection for a
> very long time and ? as I understand it ? self infertile; I know that
> a second plant  was purportedly found some time in the recent past.
> Does anyone know when the second plant was found; if there have been
> any successful outcrosses with the original, and if so are progeny now 
> available?
>
>  2 - What are the morphological distinctions between Trisetella regia
> and scobina? I do not have access to the green books and am curious.
>
>  Dave Horak
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  pleurothallid-l mailing list
>  pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
> <mailto:pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pleurothallid-l
>
>
>



> _______________________________________________
>  pleurothallid-l mailing list
>  pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pleurothallid-l
>


Daniel L. Geiger, Ph.D.
Curator of Malacology
Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History
2559 Puesta del Sol
Santa Barbara CA 93105

805 682 4711 Extension 152

geiger@vetigastropoda.com - dgeiger@sbnature2.org www.vetigastropoda.com


Geiger & Owen, 2012: Abalone Monograph
http://www.vetigastropoda.com/abstracts/publications/book.php

Geiger, 2012: Monograph of the Little Slit shells 
http://www.vetigastropoda.com/scissurellidae/
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**********************************************

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:20:45 +0100
From: Minet Laurent <laurentminet@yahoo.fr>
To: geiger <geiger@vetigastropoda.com>,
        "pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org"
        <pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [pleurothallid-l] Restrepia chocoensis and Trisetella
        regia
Message-ID:
        <1409037645.88945.YahooMailNeo@web172603.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I have no idea of what the sample size was when Luer dissected and described 
both species (he often based his work on single specimen), but I entirely 
agree that such closely looking "species", with suxh minor difference, being 
almost sympatric, could as well be regarded as one single, slightly variable, 
species! that's why I did cross my 2 plants, I hardly can consider both as 
different species.
Laurent



Le Lundi 25 ao?t 2014 22h44, geiger <geiger@vetigastropoda.com> a ?crit :



3 vs. 4 calli?!? hmmm, what is the sample size? Flowers on plant, plants, 
same plant-different years/culture conditions? How tightly does that 
correlate with geography? I am extremely skeptical of taxa with very limited 
ranges/sample-sizes and rather limited differentiation. Recent separation of 
one person is infraspecific variability of another. I admit, I am a "lumper": 
unless it is clearly separate, it is the same. I am not afraid of naming 
species based on very few specimens, or even one: e.g., Depressizona 
axiosculpta Geiger, 2009, but then the differences must be in your face.
?
Also, that crosses are possible has two faces: either it is a recent 
separation, and there still is interfertility. However, evolutionary theory 
would predict strong separating mechanism (positive Darwinian selection) 
particularly in sympatric conditions or with secondary contact (positive 
reinforcement). If the latter view is taken, then the interfertility suggests 
conspecificity, unless one postulates strong pre-zygotic isolating mechanisms 
(changes in pollinators; different flowering seasons, ?), but that is a steep 
hill to climb. Also allopatry and range extension are two explanations of the 
same observation.
?
I've been looking at calli in Oberonia with SEM, and there is quite a bit of 
infraspecific variability. My 2c of rather pleurothallid-ignorant thoughts. I 
have not seen the green books, and just go off the "3 vs. 4" morsel. I don't 
want to fault Laurent-the-messenger for it, but I would suggest critical 
reading of anything that is published.
?
Best wishes
?
Daniel
?
On August 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM Minet Laurent <laurentminet@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>
>Hi Dave
>?
>here is my contribution to your questions:
>?
>Ecuagenera do have R. chocoensis from flasked seeds. whether they're from a 
>succesful selfing, or from an outcross, is a question I can't answer.
>?
>The difference between T. scobina & regia lies in the number of calli/keels 
>on the lip. One species has 3, while the other has 4. That's what I read in 
>the Icones. I've both species, and will probably, someday, dissect one 
>flower from each to check if my plants are correctly labelled. In the 
>meantime, I've just harvested pods of scobina x regia. From their 
>distribution maps, it seems they're quite recently isolated populations of a 
>common ancestor.
>Laurent
>
>
>
>Le Lundi 25 ao?t 2014 19h50, "Horak, David" <DavidHorak@bbg.org> a ?crit :
>
>
>
>There hasn?t been any action on the list in a while so, perhaps someone can 
>help with a couple of questions:
>?
>1 - Restrepia chocoensis was known from a single collection for a very long 
>time and ? as I understand it ? self infertile; I know that a second plant? 
>was purportedly found some time in the recent past. Does anyone know when 
>the second plant was found; if there have been any successful outcrosses 
>with the original, and if so are progeny now available?
>?
>2 - What are the morphological distinctions between Trisetella regia and 
>scobina? I do not have access to the green books and am curious.
>?
>Dave Horak
>_______________________________________________
>pleurothallid-l mailing list
>pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pleurothallid-l
>
>
>

?
_______________________________________________
>pleurothallid-l mailing list
>pleurothallid-l@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pleurothallid-l

?
Daniel L. Geiger, Ph.D.
Curator of Malacology
Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History
2559 Puesta del Sol
Santa Barbara CA 93105

805 682 4711 Extension 152

geiger@vetigastropoda.com - dgeiger@sbnature2.org
www.vetigastropoda.com


Geiger & Owen, 2012: Abalone Monograph
http://www.vetigastropoda.com/abstracts/publications/book.php

Geiger, 2012: Monograph of the Little Slit shells
http://www.vetigastropoda.com/scissurellidae/

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