Permaculture Information Web

[Chad Knepp <pyg AT galatea.org>]

Good morning!

Stephanie Gerson writes:
 > Thanks for the message, Andy.
 > 
 > Yes, I completely agree with you.  As everyone on this team well
 > knows, I seek to mimic the ecological relationships our database
 > will portray in _all_ aspects of PIW - the way information is
 > organized, stored, and retrieved in the database (how does nature
 > organize, store, and retrieve information?); the manner in which
 > information is presented (using a web- like visual interface, such
 > as a Graph Based Interface); and, as you mentioned, the
 > relationship between PIW and existing resources/ oganizations
 > (parallel to that between organisms in an ecosystem); among other
 > metaphors I could draw...
 > 
 > Essentially, I'd like the message to match the medium.

I don't fully understand how nature organizes, stores, and retrieves
information and I feel a little overwhelmed by being tasked with
achieving such an understanding and then creating such a product.  I
do however see that many of the natural systems or system
relationships as having elements that would be beneficial to adopt.

It is much easier for me to apply permaculture principles to what we
are doing as these seem more clearly defined for me.  Here is how I
see our project utilizing some of the principles:

Using the PFAF/Eden and COTS type software technologies have allowed
us to obtain a yield with minimal effort.  Our development efforts
have focused on making small changes and one of our primary goals is
to incorporate feedback (collaboration).

Use and value diversity: I see a distributed network of permaculture
data that is both duplicated (redundancy/diversity of locations) and
localized.  I've said this pre-Bear and I know Bear said it a while
back that a distributed dataset seems like a Good Thing (TM).  Post
Zope the implementation of this is not that straightforward although
it might work [with MySQL] to do some kind of read/write master that
hot replicates to read only slaves (possibly individual
desktops/users).  I would rather have more of a peer to peer
relationship between datasets, perhaps even with dissimilar data in
the same way a peer to peer file sharing network is dissimilar where a
given node will only have the data (files) it wants/needs, the data
perhaps localized to the geography/node.

In a sense I don't think is really a bad thing for various groups to
proceed separately in a similar direction, but I also think it would
be good for the groups around folks like Andy to check and see if the
thing we are making is really what they are trying to make as well.
It may be the case that expanding our goals to meet their needs as
well is trivially simple.  Eden is totally open source and I have a
lot of energy to help others get it working for them from the
standpoint that more exposure will enrich both the dataset and the
code base. 

I think that all of us [seperately] are trying to create is a system
to catch and store energy^H^H^H^H^H^H permaculture information, even
if we emphasize different aspects of it or have different
implementation ideas.  This is am area where members of the core PIW
development group disagree.

Concluding in this direction I would urge Andy and the Permaculture
Association to consider using PIW software and data if it could be
adapted to meet your needs.  I am somewhat reluctant to re-open the
discussion as to the best way to implement the getting and storing
permaculture information because of the sheer volume of different
ideas.  Also the proposal that PIW group received funding for is
fairly specific so we are committed to implementing some specific
features before others.

 > So, Bear and I attended a PlaNetwork gathering on Thursday.  (For
 > those that don't know, we received a grant from the Threshold
 > Foundation in July of 2004.  Our reviewer from the Foundation was
 > Jim Fournier, the founder of PlaNetwork, and it was definitely
 > thanks to his understanding of our intentions that we received the
 > grant.)  PlaNetwork hosts monthly networking gatherings in San
 > Francisco, the East Bay, Seattle, and now New York for
 > people/organizations doing some form of networking for
 > social/environmental justice to network (networking for networkers,
 > yes).
 > 
 > Bear and I presented PIW to the small audience, and received
 > wonderful feedback.  While describing the project, I 'zoomed out'
 > and noted that although what we are constructing is specific to
 > ecological relationships (at this point), we will hopefully provide
 > a useful model/tool for web- making of any kind - whether it be
 > social webs, financial webs, or otherwise.  This definitely struck
 > a cord with these networkers, as they immediately noted its
 > potential usefulness for their purposes.  One member of the
 > audience humorously noted that each plant in the web could just as
 > easily be replaced with a non-profit...
 >
 > After the presentation, many people approached us to congratulate
 > the project.  Bear talked tech (kind of like Czech, but tech) with
 > a bunch of folks, and there was a mutual understanding of the need
 > for a web-making authoring tool.
 > 
 > Which has been my secret wish from the very beginning.  (Or not so
 > secret?  Can't remember now if I stuck that in the vision
 > statement...)  Anyways.  It's happening.  The paradigm shift from
 > reductionism to holism.  The turning point.  Apocalypse.  Whatever
 > you want to call it.  And we need tools with which to understand
 > and design systems.  Web- making tools.
 >
 > Prior to the meeting, I'd mentioned to Bear how hard it is for me
 > to write letters of inquiry.  They expect me to write our intention
 > in only one page?  How can I possibly explain Permaculture, the
 > importance of ecological relationships, let alone talk about how we
 > fit into this paradigm shift...all in one page!  But after
 > Thursday, Bear mentioned the possibility of making this
 > web-making-authoring-tool intention explicit in our grant
 > proposals.  Maybe?  Don't want to throw us off track - of course we
 > must focus on our particular subject matter for now, and it is one
 > of fundamental importance.
 > 
 > However, what we are creating will inevitably be applicable to
 > other subject matters!  And, as Bear said, perhaps we shouldn't
 > hardcode the subject matter into this - instead, make it modular,
 > adaptable to creating/visualizing other kinds of webs, such as webs
 > of non-profits (as the fellow in the audience suggested).

Hmmm... create a general purpose relationship network tool.  Well when
we are done with the current design iteration it actually might not be
that hard to drop permaculture specific elements from it and plug in
your topic of choice.  There does remain a lot of discussion and
considerable implementation hurdles to get there though... also I
can't really see how you could do this without significant
customization to adapt to the topic. 

As [most of] ya'll have heard before although I do think that the
inter-relationship aspects of elements is important information to
have, I don't personally think it merits the majority of our focus.  I
myself would prefer to focus on allowing the storing, indexing, and
retrieving of more general pieces of information such as flora, fauna,
principles, and experiences in the form articles, comments, and atomic
data elements.

I think a general purpose relationship tool could be the subject of an
additional funding proposal, but I am not as interested in being
involved in such a project as I am in a more general permaculture
information gathering project.  Also, I think you should look again at
<http://freemind.sourceforge.net/>.  I think this is really shaping up
to be the thing you have in mind.

 > This may seem somewhat tangential to Andy's message.  But not at
 > all.  We must insert PIW into the existing landscape of
 > informational resources the same way you would insert a plant into
 > an emerging guild.  And looking at the larger existing landscape -
 > that of initiatives to create webs of something, anything - we
 > could insert PIW into this larger landscape quite fruitfully.
 > Plus, this would be a nice meta-level goal to include in grant
 > proposals, and would help tie everything together in those
 > painfully short letters of inquiry.
 > 
 > Finally (just one more thing, sorry I usually don't write such long
 > messages - right guys?  But it is refreshing to get into the heart
 > of our project versus discussing logistics), I wanted to reiterate
 > a point Andy made about us being on the 'cutting edge.'  I think
 > this is fantastic.  Bear and I were talking with someone (was it
 > Jim?) about how most plant- Loving folk tend to be technophobes,
 > and what a pity that is, considering the unbelievable parallels
 > between plant relationships and what the internet has become for us
 > ('twas a more complicated conversation, but for purposes of
 > brevity).  So I just wanted to congratulate us for being at the
 > intersection of plant-Loving and tech-literate.  Like any
 > intersection in nature, there's fertility here.
 > 
 > Alright, finito.  C'est tout.  C'est la vie.  Oui.
 > 
 > peace
 > *Stephanie
 > 
 > 
 > ------ Original Message ------
 > Received: 02:04 AM PST, 01/20/2005
 > From: piw AT lists.ibiblio.org
 > To: <piw AT lists.ibiblio.org>
 > Subject: [piw] hello from ANdy Goldring at the Permaculture Association    
 >   
 > (Britain)
 > 
 > Hi PIW list,
 > 
 > my name is Andy Goldring and I am the cordinator of the Permaculture
 > Association, and involved in the development of our website -
 > www.permaculture.org.uk - spoke to Rich Morris the other day, who 
 > suggested
 > I join the list and give a bit of background to what we are doing...
 > 
 > our website is basically written using an access database and asp, but we
 > have plans to migrate to open source - probably mysql and php in the next
 > 6-12 months
 > 
 > we are not yet very interactive, but this will be coming in next 2-4 
 > months.
 > 
 > very keen indeed to see how the main pc websites can start to
 > collaborate in significant ways - have been inspired by
 > www.takingitglobal.org - which as far as I know shares a database
 > with 6 or 7 other international youth websites / organisations.

I'm interested in more ideas in this line of thought.  Do we want to,
and if so, how can we share a dataset?

 > feel permaculture could do similar things and start to reduce
 > duplicated effort, provide more consistent and accurate info and
 > assist groups with less resources to still be able to provide a
 > brilliant web service. Just having up to date contact details for
 > groups available would be a great start.
 > 
 > Spoke to Rich today and he asked "what is a web hit worth", which
 > is an interesting point, taken further I think this becomes "what
 > can we make it worth?" Crucial to this is providing a way for
 > people to move from web realm of permaculture interest in to real
 > world personal action, interaction and involvement - so linking
 > websites to real people and places seems essential.  It is
 > interesting that having an interactive site is not in itself enough
 > for ensuring people interact - so finding ways to key in to
 > existing networks and get them participating is important, and
 > hopefully I can help to key in some of the UK permaculture network
 > into the piw work - would be keen to discuss your thoughts and
 > suggestions in this area.
 >
 > Anyway, I could go on for ages about all that, and would like to
 > see how we can use pc principles as part of the emergent design. i
 > am aware that you are concentrating for now on piw - which looks
 > great and seems to work well - and almost certainly don't want new
 > people coming in saying "you should do it like this, or like that"
 > and that is not my intention

Actually I'm VERY interested in feedback, critical or otherwise.  Say
more...

 > main intention for joining the group is because it would seem to me
 > that you are at the cutting edge of permaculture web development
 > and I would like to keep up to date with where your thinking is,
 > offer perspectives and support and ensure that we are
 > collaborating, or at least making conscious decisions to go
 > different ways and try different approaches. ALso keen to ensure
 > that all the work we have put into our site is made best use of -
 > we have hundreds of links, contacts etc and would be a shame to see
 > all this effort duplicated elsewhere, would much rather see
 > collaboration and data sharing.

Nice looking site and I agree that it would be good to put more of
this information together, not for the sake of creating a monopoly,
but for increasing the intellectual wealth we hold in common.  What
sort of alignments do you see between these projects and how do you
think we could collaborate?  Do you have a spec for shared data yet?
;-)

Regardless, I hope you are aware that you [easily I hope] can run Eden
and its PFAF based dataset on your site with no more restrictions/cost
than you comply with the open source license it is released under.  It
will run out of the box on almost any type of server (requires Python
and MySQL).  [Very near] Future versions will be much easier to
integrate into an existing site.

 > Enough for now
 > 
 > Best wishes
 > 
 > ANdy G

-- 
Chad Knepp
python -c 'import base64;print base64.decodestring("cHlnQGdhbGF0ZWEub3Jn")'