permaculture

[Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

So very true! There is theory and then there is practical application.  And 
there is backyard scale and there are community, city and regional scales and 
the solutions are not always the same for different echelons. I don't think 
that any one person can or should say what "the permaculture message" is. 
Permaculture principles need to be applied to every human system and there 
are many potential messages depending on the circumstance being addressed.  

As long as people eat, there will be market gardens. Food markets and trade 
are as old as civilization. Not everybody is going to grow their own food. 
Even dedicated food forest nuts (like me) still go to market and buy stuff.  
Some people are more focused on the built environment, financial 
permaculture, social permaculture, etc, and I'm glad there are market 
gardeners around to feed them so they can focus on their work. So we, as 
designers, need to be clever and address  energy leaks/pollution, etc in the 
market gardening system (which means transport among other things - not a 
problem that is exclusive to market gardening by any means) by using good 
design. Whether or not inputs come from outside the system is not the 
question (as you point out). How damaging was the extraction, processing and 
transport? What is the lifecycle of the input? And what are the edges of the 
system anyway? My property line? !? That is pretty arbitrary from an
 ecosystems viewpoint!  It's not interrelationship that is the problem in our 
culture - it is the WAY those interrelationships occur.  

People will continue to use markets, so what are the optimum designs for any 
particular market?  How can we produce food for market in a fully 
regenerative/sustainable fashion? And how do we scale that up to millions and 
billions of people? (not talking about one size fits all, but designing from 
pattern to detail). What are the megapatterns and trends and how does that 
impact local design? It's one thing to have a food forest in your backyard, 
but how many people live in your city? How many live in apartments? 

I personally am wondering why the heck we're spending any time arguing about 
food growing, which overall, we are doing better at than we are in some of 
the other sectors (built environment, energy, finance, etc). As a movement, 
we are seriously weak in solutions for energy use on any kind of scale, for 
instance. Rome is burning! 

In spite of this, all of us are doing significantly more things right than 
wrong especially when compared to most people out there. We are all way ahead 
of the pack as far as engaging in regenerative activities. It's always an 
option to look at what each of us is doing right and acknowledge and 
strengthen that. We need a diversity of solutions and we need to be linked in 
to those solutions to get the real benefit of diversity. For those who 
haven't tried to grow food or plants commercially, it's an interesting 
activity with its own unique problems and solutions that are very different 
than the problems that come up in backyard gardening, and to address those 
problems, the design must be different than it is for a backyard garden.  The 
knowledge and views of professionals from other fields who have an 
understanding of the issues they need to address and want to use permaculture 
principles to do so, is in my mind essential to turning the scene on
 this planet around at any kind of meaningful pace. 

For me "The" permaculture message is this: Permaculture is a design 
methodology based on a powerful set of ethics, principles and tools that can 
be applied to any human activity or system at any scale to rebuild damaged 
ecosystems, and eliminate destructive use of limited resources and pollution, 
thus providing a means to live sustainably. Permaculture designers can also 
address waste and misuse of human resources and economic energy. We do this 
through observation of and cooperation with natural systems energy, and by 
designing from a systems viewpoint. (Food forests are one of hundreds of 
things that permaculture tools can be used for, toward the results, above). 
Permaculture can achieve those things to the degree the design problem is 
fully faced and understood, and those tools are thoroughly applied. Not an 
easy task! 

 

Koreen Brennan

Urban Permaculture Design Course Tampa Bay - Feb 22 - May 18, 2014
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow 

Koreen Brennan

Urban Permaculture Design Course Tampa Bay - Feb 22 - May 18, 2014
www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow




On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 10:10 PM, Jason Gerhardt 
<jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
  
The concept of "closed loop systems" bothers me. I see very few closed
loop systems in the natural world. I see more of the opposite--open systems.
As we learn more about the planet we are realizing it is a much more open
system than we thought, even as a whole. I think it's time to drop the
"closed loop systems" mantra.

I don't mean to quote the Designer's Manual like the official word, but
Bill addresses this topic very well in the chapter Concepts of Design (a
highly overlooked chapter in my opinion) in the section 2.3 and 2.6. Here's
just a taste "Although the material world can perhaps be predictably
measured, by applications of the laws of thermodynamics, these relate to
mainly non-living or experimentally 'closed systems'. The concept of
entropy is not necessarily applicable to those living, open earth systems
with which we are involved and in which we are immersed. Such laws are more
useful in finding an effective path through material technologies than
through a life-complexed world. The key word in open systems is 'exchange'".

In my practice of permaculture it's all about designing relationships, and
relationships, at least the good ones, are all about exchange. We're really
trying to design more complex open systems, therefore more relationships,
as I see it.

I like to design open systems that accept the waste of neighboring systems
that aren't recycling their energies. Once those energies get to my site I
want to cycle them as long as possible to maximize the use of those
energies and therefore increase yield, while knowing full well there will
still be a flow of nutrients or water or whatever that leaves the site, and
goes on to enrich another system. Practicing permaculture in cities for
example, I'll accept as much waste as is useful to the system I'm
designing. Why would I want to close the nutrient loop? I say keep it
coming if that material is going to do harm somewhere else. At this current
point in time I don't see any shortage of useful materials and energies of
all kinds on a city scale, so instead of closing my loops, I'm going to
accept the waste of other systems to enrich and grow my own by forming
relationships with those other systems.

This also gets to the concept of every permaculturist having to know how to
do everything. Instead more of us are coming to realize that we can form
relationships to meet many of our needs through exchange. The more
relationships and the more exchanges, the more resilient the system as it
often turns out. To me closed loop systems are for those who strive to be
self-sufficient and survivalists. As Larry Santoyo has said about
homesteaders interested in self-sufficiency and survivalism, "build your
doomstead now". Closed systems are boring, and eventually lead to doom, as
the law of entropy suggests. So can we drop the "closed loop systems"
mantra? I think it's misleading, and truth be told, I've never seen one in
practice.

Jason Gerhardt
-- 
PO Box 4355
Boulder, CO 80306
720-496-9744
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-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for 
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habitat
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

> People will continue to use markets, so what are the optimum designs for
> any particular market?  How can we produce food for market in a fully
> regenerative/sustainable fashion? And how do we scale that up to millions
> and billions of people? (not talking about one size fits all, but designing
> from pattern to detail). What are the megapatterns and trends and how does
> that impact local design? It's one thing to have a food forest in your
> backyard, but how many people live in your city? How many live in
> apartments?
>

It is not difficult to produce food for market, for local consumption using
all the currently available marketing methods, using natural methods and
materials that are completely integrated with all of permaculture. When you
want to feed millions of people then you have to design systems that can
reliably produce on that level and, this is one of the main permaculture
features of such systems, have more farms and gardens online serving their
communities and regions and you need supportive governmental agencies from
county to federal helping out.
Many market food producers have embraced permaculture in a robust way and
many have put all their eggs in one bsket, i.e. everything they do for a
lifetime revolves around making a living growing food using natural
permacultural methods for local sales. To cut them out of the loop to
satisfy the egos involved with permaculture-turned-religion is unacceptable
and is one of the reasons why many people question the validity of
permaculture in the first place. I don't and never will do this and I have
to generate income too.

I think permaculture should be taught from K to 12 with university level
courses beyond. Think of a university focusing all its science departments
on their permaculture curriculum!
Mollison said that the only limit to a permaculture design is the
imagination of the designer. As far as I am concerned permaculture design
and practice is limitless. That could surely evolve into a religion for
some. I think most permaculturists have only scratched the surface of what
can be accomplished with permaculture. This is one of my favorite topics
and I think Scott, Toby and many others for stimulating my lifetime
interest in this.

As for Koreen's mention of optimum design for any particular market, that
is where real reform is needed. Permaculture market grower-vendors need to
make their voices heard and network to gain their fair share of local
market opportunities.

LL

>
> I personally am wondering why the heck we're spending any time arguing
> about food growing, which overall, we are doing better at than we are in
> some of the other sectors (built environment,


Reading what I wrote above will answer your question. Reform in local
market opportunities for small local growers is very much needed.
Ask John D'hondt about the need for that.


> energy, finance, etc). As a movement, we are seriously weak in solutions
> for energy use on any kind of scale, for instance. Rome is burning!
>

Tell us more about how we can be more effective energy users and energy
producers.

LL

>
> In spite of this, all of us are doing significantly more things right than
> wrong especially when compared to most people out there. We are all way
> ahead of the pack as far as engaging in regenerative activities. It's
> always an option to look at what each of us is doing right and acknowledge
> and strengthen that. We need a diversity of solutions and we need to be
> linked in to those solutions to get the real benefit of diversity.
> For those who haven't tried to grow food or plants commercially, it's an
> interesting activity with its own unique problems and solutions that are
> very different than the problems that come up in backyard gardening, and to
> address those problems, the design must be different than it is for a
> backyard garden.  The knowledge and views of professionals from other
> fields who have an understanding of the issues they need to address and
> want to use permaculture principles to do so, is in my mind essential to
> turning the scene on
>  this planet around at any kind of meaningful pace.
>
> For me "The" permaculture message is this: Permaculture is a design
> methodology based on a powerful set of ethics, principles and tools that
> can be applied to any human activity or system at any scale to rebuild
> damaged ecosystems, and eliminate destructive use of limited resources
> and pollution, thus providing a means to live sustainably. Permaculture
> designers can also address waste and misuse of human resources and economic
> energy. We do this through observation of and cooperation with natural
> systems energy, and by designing from a systems viewpoint. (Food forests
> are one of hundreds of things that permaculture tools can be used
> for, toward the results, above). Permaculture can achieve those things to
> the degree the design problem is fully faced and understood, and those
> tools are thoroughly applied. Not an easy task!
>
>
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> Urban Permaculture Design Course Tampa Bay - Feb 22 - May 18, 2014
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> Urban Permaculture Design Course Tampa Bay - Feb 22 - May 18, 2014
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 10:10 PM, Jason Gerhardt <
> jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The concept of "closed loop systems" bothers me. I see very few closed
> loop systems in the natural world. I see more of the opposite--open
> systems.
> As we learn more about the planet we are realizing it is a much more open
> system than we thought, even as a whole. I think it's time to drop the
> "closed loop systems" mantra.
>
> I don't mean to quote the Designer's Manual like the official word, but
> Bill addresses this topic very well in the chapter Concepts of Design (a
> highly overlooked chapter in my opinion) in the section 2.3 and 2.6. Here's
> just a taste "Although the material world can perhaps be predictably
> measured, by applications of the laws of thermodynamics, these relate to
> mainly non-living or experimentally 'closed systems'. The concept of
> entropy is not necessarily applicable to those living, open earth systems
> with which we are involved and in which we are immersed. Such laws are more
> useful in finding an effective path through material technologies than
> through a life-complexed world. The key word in open systems is
> 'exchange'".
>
> In my practice of permaculture it's all about designing relationships, and
> relationships, at least the good ones, are all about exchange. We're really
> trying to design more complex open systems, therefore more relationships,
> as I see it.
>
> I like to design open systems that accept the waste of neighboring systems
> that aren't recycling their energies. Once those energies get to my site I
> want to cycle them as long as possible to maximize the use of those
> energies and therefore increase yield, while knowing full well there will
> still be a flow of nutrients or water or whatever that leaves the site, and
> goes on to enrich another system. Practicing permaculture in cities for
> example, I'll accept as much waste as is useful to the system I'm
> designing. Why would I want to close the nutrient loop? I say keep it
> coming if that material is going to do harm somewhere else. At this current
> point in time I don't see any shortage of useful materials and energies of
> all kinds on a city scale, so instead of closing my loops, I'm going to
> accept the waste of other systems to enrich and grow my own by forming
> relationships with those other systems.
>
> This also gets to the concept of every permaculturist having to know how to
> do everything. Instead more of us are coming to realize that we can form
> relationships to meet many of our needs through exchange. The more
> relationships and the more exchanges, the more resilient the system as it
> often turns out. To me closed loop systems are for those who strive to be
> self-sufficient and survivalists. As Larry Santoyo has said about
> homesteaders interested in self-sufficiency and survivalism, "build your
> doomstead now". Closed systems are boring, and eventually lead to doom, as
> the law of entropy suggests. So can we drop the "closed loop systems"
> mantra? I think it's misleading, and truth be told, I've never seen one in
> practice.
>
> Jason Gerhardt
> --
> PO Box 4355
> Boulder, CO 80306
> 720-496-9744
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org/
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net/
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com/
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>



--
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Skype: lawrence.f.london