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Thanks Toby for summing things up so well as you so often do. Cheers, Darren


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On 4 January 2014 05:51, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:

> I get that Steve believes that aquaponics can't be permaculture because it
> is artificial. But that's not an argument, that's asserting an opinion.
> This is important because it gets to what permaculture is and isn't. What
> makes something part of permaculture?
>
> Yes, to me, too, "natural" is more desirable than "artificial" (tho I
> usually prefer drinking from a cup to lapping from a puddle). But the
> comparison of McDonalds to aquaponics is specious. McDonalds uses highly
> processed, chemically synthesized additives, non-organic, refined GMO
> grains, and hormone and antibiotic-laced, CAFO beef fed on poisonous,
> stripped distillers grain by-products, whose detrimental effect on health
> is well documented. Aquaponics provides whole plants grown organically, in
> natural rock, water, and manure, with no processing or additives. Why would
> those plants be less nutritious than the cattails and watercress from my
> neighbor's pond? I need to see data. We'll always disagree on that one.
>
> But natural and artificial are completely subjective terms—is a designed
> guild natural or artificial?--and that makes the artificial/natural divide
> useless as a permaculture criteria. What determines inclusion in
> permaculture is not where a process falls on some subjective
> natural/artificial opinion scale, but whether it follows the ethics and
> principles, and is arrived at by the design methods of permaculture.
> Otherwise, permaculture is nothing but opinions.
>
> When David Holmgren stayed in my house about 10 years ago, we had a long
> talk about the natural vs artificial distinction, and David didn't think it
> was a meaningful one. And from Bill's writings and the PDC I took from him,
> he doesn't use it as a criteria to define permaculture, but rather uses
> metrics like "does it damage or preserve ecosystems? and "does it mimic
> natural cycles?" I'm going to side with the masters here.
>
> All agriculture is artificial. To me, "natural" means without
> technological intervention, and humans went "synthetic" as soon as we
> starting watering plants and selecting fat seeds 10,000 years ago. Some
> people argue that all farming is natural, others that only certain farming
> is natural, others that no farming is natural, and they are all correct,
> because "natural" is not a definable word. It's a soothing but sloppy term
> subject to opinion, not definition.
>
> When used as a basis for deciding if something is permaculture or not,
> opinions like "artificial" take us into cultism and the worst of hippie
> permaculture, where we believe our assumptions must be true because we call
> something "natural," so we don't need to test, prove, or demonstrate their
> accuracy. We can just say, it's natural, so it's clearly more nutritious
> and earth-friendly and astrally aligned than some "artificial" and
> therefore bad thing, a priori in a circular argument, without bothering
> with data. This is why permaculture has such a low regard in the academic,
> scientific, and policy communities. Assertions about "artificial"
> aquaponics are a perfect example: opinion with no argument, criteria, or
> proof. When I argue that aquaponics is a closed-loop system that mimics an
> estuary, Steve just counters with, you don't get it, it's artificial and
> permaculture is natural. That's a noble sentiment, but it's not an
> argument. Water from a metal rain tank is permaculture and natural, but a
> plant grown in a metal tank is not? Come on.
>
> Instead of vague opinions like "natural," we need clear, measurable
> criteria for describing permaculture, and we have them: Does it mimic
> ecosystem processes, fill important needs, and improve ecosystem health? We
> have excellent tools for measuring all of those. We have no metric for
> "natural," which is why corporate capitalists have seized happily on the
> word, just as they like "no artificial ingredients," which allows MSG and
> preservatives. Those words can mean anything. Saying that permaculture
> excludes "artificial" things (and only certain artificial things; cisterns
> and keyline plows are okay) takes us into muddiness and away from a useful
> description.
>
> We need working, definable terms backed by data, not shiftable opinions
> that just have to be right because they seem more "natural" than others.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Jan 2, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Steve Hart wrote:
>
> > Hi Toby et al...a point of clarification... you suggest
> >
> > "First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get
> > it."
> >
> > It is not a matter of agreeing with me at all. After all many do not in
> > many arguments I offer to many forums. I am presenting an argument to
> agree
> > with or not. It is not about agreeing with me or not, it is the argument,
> > or the point I'm raising. . Clearly you don't get it either and still
> want
> > to argue that imitation systems like A&H are great models of Permaculture
> > Design. I argue that they are clearly synthetic and imitation and an
> > example of the weakening of Permaculture.
> >
> > I am also more than aware that through Permaculture we learn a lot from
> > nature and do mimic many elements viz worm farms, hot composting, swales
> > etc etc etc. I am also very much aware of the myriad of foods and plants
> > that live naturally in water. I have also become aware of the values of
> > micro-nutrients and different energy fields to our own personal health.
> > Many which can not mimic or be imitated.
> >
> > Our impoverished communities do have great challenges. But I do not see
> > offering them artificial systems as their solutions to the crap they have
> > available in their stores. MacDonalds probably uses this argument to. We
> > need to go beyond that. CSA is one fine example.
> >
> > As for weak PDCs this probably is the root cause to an unenlightened
> > collective global family we have. Probably through a result of too great
> a
> > demand and not enough supply. So untrained uneducated inexperienced
> > teachers have stood up. So our challenge for the years ahead is to
> consider
> > ways of strengthening the whole dynamic of Permaculture teaching.  But
> > suggesting artificial systems are organic and great design models I'm
> > afraid is not the avenue to address such. We need to strive for greater
> > solutions and seek greater models while constantly challenging all
> systems
> > especially the weaknesses and discarding them.
> > Steve Hart
> >
> >
> > On 2 January 2014 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> >>        permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>   1. Re: The weakening of Permaculture. (Toby Hemenway)
> >>   2. Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu (Lawrence London)
> >>   3. Re: Aquaponics: artificial? (georg parlow)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 21:33:30 -0800
> >> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The weakening of Permaculture.
> >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Message-ID: <B3E5259C-0F21-4714-8719-E5D97085D5B3@patternliteracy.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
> >>
> >> First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get
> it."
> >> It's tempting to retort that someone who dogmatically says that
> aquaponics
> >> isn't permaculture needs a remedial PDC, too, but that's too rude for
> me to
> >> ever say!  The points Steve is making are elementary permaculture: mimic
> >> nature and don't work against it, avoid "artificial" systems, grow
> healthy
> >> food. I think we here are all smart enough to get them. And I agree with
> >> all of them. We just see their application differently.
> >>
> >> This is why I am continuing with this thread. Steve seems to be saying
> >> that it's only permaculture if it's made in the same form nature uses,
> and
> >> I think we are better guided by the processes, principles, and systems
> of
> >> nature rather than by whether a plant grows in dirt or not,  and that's
> a
> >> critical distinction (how amended can soil be before it's not "natural,"
> >> anyway? 2% peat moss? 50%?). I don't think of permaculture as a thing,
> as
> >> something you can point to and say "This is (or is not) permaculture."
> If a
> >> permaculture design process was used to arrive at a decision, then that
> is
> >> a permacultural application. And I have seen excellent design processes
> >> that arrive at aquaponics as part of a permaculture system.
> >>
> >> I need to see data showing that aquaponics food is less nutritious than
> >> soil-grown. I see no basis. Nature grows many plants in water. In fact,
> the
> >> controlled conditions of aquaponics should give superb nutrient uptake.
> >> Plants stressed by the vagaries of soil and weather usually have fewer
> >> nutrients than crops that grow evenly and quickly via ample access to
> food,
> >> water, and warmth.
> >>
> >> If permaculture is about mimicking nature in the way Steve suggests, we
> >> are doing it all wrong. Nature does not do keyline plowing, or planting
> on
> >> contour, or zoning by frequency of use, or grafting, or hot composting,
> or
> >> worm bins, nor does it build earthworks in rational ways. Few of our
> >> methods mimic the form of nature.
> >>
> >> That's because we're designing, which is something nature does not do.
> >> Permaculture mimics nature's processes and systems, not the form or
> >> objects, so we will often arrive at forms (like aquaponics or a swale)
> that
> >> don't look like nature's form, but the processes are. Aquaponics is a
> >> superb mimic of an estuarine ecosystem, using the same natural processes
> >> and nutrients.
> >>
> >> A basic tenet is that permaculturists design for specific sites and
> >> conditions. Do I want to see aquaponics supplant soil-based systems? Of
> >> course not; I'm not an idiot. In most cases, soil-based growing is more
> >> appropriate than aquaponics. Do I see specific conditions when
> aquaponics
> >> fits all the criteria of permaculture design as the best method to fill
> >> important needs? Absolutely.
> >>
> >> A perfect role for aquaponics in permaculture design is an urban setting
> >> where soil is toxic or absent, land is too dear for food growing, where
> >> animals can't be raised for food, in "food deserts" where all food sold
> in
> >> a region is junk (it is a privilege to be able to choose, or afford, or
> >> grow healthy food, one denied to many urbanites).
> >>
> >> I've seen several great examples of this. One is the aquaponics systems
> in
> >> Will Allen's Growing Power site in Milwaukee, another the GrowHaus in
> >> Denver. Both of these are in impoverished areas; the GrowHaus is in a
> food
> >> desert, a polluted industrial area of low-income people of color. Their
> >> large aquaponics systems provide not just fresh organic food in place of
> >> the poisonous crap in local stores, but income opportunities for the
> >> locals, a social nexus, business experience, farm training, and
> education
> >> around food, agricultural traditions, social justice, whole systems, and
> >> community activism.
> >>
> >> If that's a "weakening" of permaculture rather than one of the best
> >> examples in the world of deep permaculture, I'm a monkey's uncle. And
> that
> >> is why I would never be dogmatic about whether an object is or is not
> >> permaculture. It is about where it fits in the system, and very little
> >> about what it is made of.
> >>
> >> And I love what Steve Waldron wrote:
> >>
> >>> The great strength of the aquaponics system is that it really grabs
> >>> people's attention and gets them interested in feedback loops and
> >>> plant/animal synergies.  It's subversive eco-pedagogy at its best.
> >>
> >> That is great permaculture design.
> >>
> >> Happy New Year to all,
> >>
> >> Toby
> >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>
> >>
>
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