permaculture

[A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>]

Does anyone have tips for one of my graduates who is now doing a PhD in 
permaculture and nutrition.
can you please indicate where there may be scientific data from research.
Cheers

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*April S-Kelly*
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On 3/01/2014 4:00 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>     1. Re: The weakening of Permaculture. (Toby Hemenway)
>     2. Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu (Lawrence London)
>     3. Re: Aquaponics: artificial? (georg parlow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 21:33:30 -0800
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The weakening of Permaculture.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <B3E5259C-0F21-4714-8719-E5D97085D5B3@patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
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> First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get it." It's 
> tempting to retort that someone who dogmatically says that aquaponics isn't permaculture needs a 
> remedial PDC, too, but that's too rude for me to ever say!  The points Steve is making are 
> elementary permaculture: mimic nature and don't work against it, avoid "artificial" 
> systems, grow healthy food. I think we here are all smart enough to get them. And I agree with 
> all of them. We just see their application differently.
>
> This is why I am continuing with this thread. Steve seems to be saying that it's only 
> permaculture if it's made in the same form nature uses, and I think we are better guided by the 
> processes, principles, and systems of nature rather than by whether a plant grows in dirt or not, 
>  and that's a critical distinction (how amended can soil be before it's not "natural," 
> anyway? 2% peat moss? 50%?). I don't think of permaculture as a thing, as something you can point 
> to and say "This is (or is not) permaculture." If a permaculture design process was 
> used to arrive at a decision, then that is a permacultural application. And I have seen excellent 
> design processes that arrive at aquaponics as part of a permaculture system.
>
> I need to see data showing that aquaponics food is less nutritious than 
> soil-grown. I see no basis. Nature grows many plants in water. In fact, the 
> controlled conditions of aquaponics should give superb nutrient uptake. 
> Plants stressed by the vagaries of soil and weather usually have fewer 
> nutrients than crops that grow evenly and quickly via ample access to food, 
> water, and warmth.
>
> If permaculture is about mimicking nature in the way Steve suggests, we are 
> doing it all wrong. Nature does not do keyline plowing, or planting on 
> contour, or zoning by frequency of use, or grafting, or hot composting, or 
> worm bins, nor does it build earthworks in rational ways. Few of our methods 
> mimic the form of nature.
>
> That's because we're designing, which is something nature does not do. 
> Permaculture mimics nature's processes and systems, not the form or objects, 
> so we will often arrive at forms (like aquaponics or a swale) that don't look 
> like nature's form, but the processes are. Aquaponics is a superb mimic of an 
> estuarine ecosystem, using the same natural processes and nutrients.
>
> A basic tenet is that permaculturists design for specific sites and 
> conditions. Do I want to see aquaponics supplant soil-based systems? Of 
> course not; I'm not an idiot. In most cases, soil-based growing is more 
> appropriate than aquaponics. Do I see specific conditions when aquaponics 
> fits all the criteria of permaculture design as the best method to fill 
> important needs? Absolutely.
>
> A perfect role for aquaponics in permaculture design is an urban setting where soil is 
> toxic or absent, land is too dear for food growing, where animals can't be raised for 
> food, in "food deserts" where all food sold in a region is junk (it is a 
> privilege to be able to choose, or afford, or grow healthy food, one denied to many 
> urbanites).
>
> I've seen several great examples of this. One is the aquaponics systems in 
> Will Allen's Growing Power site in Milwaukee, another the GrowHaus in Denver. 
> Both of these are in impoverished areas; the GrowHaus is in a food desert, a 
> polluted industrial area of low-income people of color. Their large 
> aquaponics systems provide not just fresh organic food in place of the 
> poisonous crap in local stores, but income opportunities for the locals, a 
> social nexus, business experience, farm training, and education around food, 
> agricultural traditions, social justice, whole systems, and community 
> activism.
>
> If that's a "weakening" of permaculture rather than one of the best examples 
> in the world of deep permaculture, I'm a monkey's uncle. And that is why I would never 
> be dogmatic about whether an object is or is not permaculture. It is about where it 
> fits in the system, and very little about what it is made of.
>
> And I love what Steve Waldron wrote:
>
> > The great strength of the aquaponics system is that it really grabs
> > people's attention and gets them interested in feedback loops and
> > plant/animal synergies.  It's subversive eco-pedagogy at its best.
> That is great permaculture design.
>
> Happy New Year to all,
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Steve Hart wrote:
>
> > This debate began by me using the Aquaponics Hydroponics issues as classic
> > examples of one example of the whole weakening of Permaculture. Quite
> > obviously, to me anyway, many just don't get it. At least my argument
> > anyway.
> >
> > Our challenge in Permaculture is to mimic nature and work with her not
> > against it. It is not an arbitrary debate. It actually calls for greater
> > respect and dilgence and perhaps more intelligence. Not all existing
> > farming is artificial. But we are certainly breeding ageneration of very
> > lazy caretakers who are rapidly farming off the directions on the back of a
> > plastic bottle and under the doctrines of accountants and the banksters.
> >
> > A and H are synthetic imitation attempts at production to the detriment of
> > the consumer. Have we forgotten the experiment that lead to the movie on
> > eating only Macdonalds ? "Super Size Me " ?. Then of course there is the
> > Mollisonism "The Bruce Effect"
> >
> > For optimal health we need connection to the real qualities of soil and
> > water. Artificial systems do not offer this. We do not need artificial
> > inputs either to develop  best water and soil. But, a far greater
> > understanding of what exists in nature and all its realms in order to
> > develop patterns and processes and procedures to get there.  If one can not
> > or will not respect this reality then its time for another Permaculture
> > Design Course by a tutor that will explore and instill  these realities in
> > all the teachings. ...Steve Hart
> >
> > Seems to me there is a hell of a lot more learning and realisation needed
> > for this debate to progress anywhere...Steve Hart
> >
> >
> > On 31 December 2013 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 04:35:51 -0500
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free |
>         Hulu
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <CA+j2Q+CUC1q0eNmpu9-vG1cGEcBKh6w2d1cmgkMRkwHnWRwByA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu
> http://www.hulu.com/watch/397072
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 17:37:54 +0100
> From: georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Aquaponics: artificial?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <C8AE4B03-D716-47CB-92C0-AB81839926A5@gmx.at>
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>
> I am feeding with homemade pellets - I make them from organic oil
> press cake (hemp, almond, sesame and linseed), whole meal spelt flour,
> and a little rockdust. All of it purchased, I admit. I grow my own
> duckweed to supplement. For next season I plan to set up my BSF larvae
> production (with setting up the main system I could not focus on that,
> and it failed), and a tank growing a small native crawfish on tree
> leaves and veggy scraps for fich food .
>
> Georg
>
>
> Am 30.12.2013 um 18:43 schrieb Pete Gasper, Gasper Family Farm:
>
> > To me, fish food is a huge input, and one that is often
> > unsustainable. What
> > examples do you know of that do it without fish food inputs (or very
> > little)?
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > On 12/29/2013 02:57 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> > > Almost none of that is the case for aquaponics. It is a low-input,
> > > closed loop system, very different. Fish food is the primary input,
> > > though I know of systems that use almost no purchased fish food.
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> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 3
> ********************************************