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  • From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] The argument ?
  • Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 18:52:21 -0400

Hi Toby et al...a point of clarification... you suggest

"First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get
it."

It is not a matter of agreeing with me at all. After all many do not in
many arguments I offer to many forums. I am presenting an argument to agree
with or not. It is not about agreeing with me or not, it is the argument,
or the point I'm raising. . Clearly you don't get it either and still want
to argue that imitation systems like A&H are great models of Permaculture
Design. I argue that they are clearly synthetic and imitation and an
example of the weakening of Permaculture.

I am also more than aware that through Permaculture we learn a lot from
nature and do mimic many elements viz worm farms, hot composting, swales
etc etc etc. I am also very much aware of the myriad of foods and plants
that live naturally in water. I have also become aware of the values of
micro-nutrients and different energy fields to our own personal health.
Many which can not mimic or be imitated.

Our impoverished communities do have great challenges. But I do not see
offering them artificial systems as their solutions to the crap they have
available in their stores. MacDonalds probably uses this argument to. We
need to go beyond that. CSA is one fine example.

As for weak PDCs this probably is the root cause to an unenlightened
collective global family we have. Probably through a result of too great a
demand and not enough supply. So untrained uneducated inexperienced
teachers have stood up. So our challenge for the years ahead is to consider
ways of strengthening the whole dynamic of Permaculture teaching. But
suggesting artificial systems are organic and great design models I'm
afraid is not the avenue to address such. We need to strive for greater
solutions and seek greater models while constantly challenging all systems
especially the weaknesses and discarding them.
Steve Hart


On 2 January 2014 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: The weakening of Permaculture. (Toby Hemenway)
> 2. Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu (Lawrence London)
> 3. Re: Aquaponics: artificial? (georg parlow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 21:33:30 -0800
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] The weakening of Permaculture.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <B3E5259C-0F21-4714-8719-E5D97085D5B3@patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get it."
> It's tempting to retort that someone who dogmatically says that aquaponics
> isn't permaculture needs a remedial PDC, too, but that's too rude for me to
> ever say! The points Steve is making are elementary permaculture: mimic
> nature and don't work against it, avoid "artificial" systems, grow healthy
> food. I think we here are all smart enough to get them. And I agree with
> all of them. We just see their application differently.
>
> This is why I am continuing with this thread. Steve seems to be saying
> that it's only permaculture if it's made in the same form nature uses, and
> I think we are better guided by the processes, principles, and systems of
> nature rather than by whether a plant grows in dirt or not, and that's a
> critical distinction (how amended can soil be before it's not "natural,"
> anyway? 2% peat moss? 50%?). I don't think of permaculture as a thing, as
> something you can point to and say "This is (or is not) permaculture." If a
> permaculture design process was used to arrive at a decision, then that is
> a permacultural application. And I have seen excellent design processes
> that arrive at aquaponics as part of a permaculture system.
>
> I need to see data showing that aquaponics food is less nutritious than
> soil-grown. I see no basis. Nature grows many plants in water. In fact, the
> controlled conditions of aquaponics should give superb nutrient uptake.
> Plants stressed by the vagaries of soil and weather usually have fewer
> nutrients than crops that grow evenly and quickly via ample access to food,
> water, and warmth.
>
> If permaculture is about mimicking nature in the way Steve suggests, we
> are doing it all wrong. Nature does not do keyline plowing, or planting on
> contour, or zoning by frequency of use, or grafting, or hot composting, or
> worm bins, nor does it build earthworks in rational ways. Few of our
> methods mimic the form of nature.
>
> That's because we're designing, which is something nature does not do.
> Permaculture mimics nature's processes and systems, not the form or
> objects, so we will often arrive at forms (like aquaponics or a swale) that
> don't look like nature's form, but the processes are. Aquaponics is a
> superb mimic of an estuarine ecosystem, using the same natural processes
> and nutrients.
>
> A basic tenet is that permaculturists design for specific sites and
> conditions. Do I want to see aquaponics supplant soil-based systems? Of
> course not; I'm not an idiot. In most cases, soil-based growing is more
> appropriate than aquaponics. Do I see specific conditions when aquaponics
> fits all the criteria of permaculture design as the best method to fill
> important needs? Absolutely.
>
> A perfect role for aquaponics in permaculture design is an urban setting
> where soil is toxic or absent, land is too dear for food growing, where
> animals can't be raised for food, in "food deserts" where all food sold in
> a region is junk (it is a privilege to be able to choose, or afford, or
> grow healthy food, one denied to many urbanites).
>
> I've seen several great examples of this. One is the aquaponics systems in
> Will Allen's Growing Power site in Milwaukee, another the GrowHaus in
> Denver. Both of these are in impoverished areas; the GrowHaus is in a food
> desert, a polluted industrial area of low-income people of color. Their
> large aquaponics systems provide not just fresh organic food in place of
> the poisonous crap in local stores, but income opportunities for the
> locals, a social nexus, business experience, farm training, and education
> around food, agricultural traditions, social justice, whole systems, and
> community activism.
>
> If that's a "weakening" of permaculture rather than one of the best
> examples in the world of deep permaculture, I'm a monkey's uncle. And that
> is why I would never be dogmatic about whether an object is or is not
> permaculture. It is about where it fits in the system, and very little
> about what it is made of.
>
> And I love what Steve Waldron wrote:
>
> > The great strength of the aquaponics system is that it really grabs
> > people's attention and gets them interested in feedback loops and
> > plant/animal synergies. It's subversive eco-pedagogy at its best.
>
> That is great permaculture design.
>
> Happy New Year to all,
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Steve Hart wrote:
>
> > This debate began by me using the Aquaponics Hydroponics issues as
> classic
> > examples of one example of the whole weakening of Permaculture. Quite
> > obviously, to me anyway, many just don't get it. At least my argument
> > anyway.
> >
> > Our challenge in Permaculture is to mimic nature and work with her not
> > against it. It is not an arbitrary debate. It actually calls for greater
> > respect and dilgence and perhaps more intelligence. Not all existing
> > farming is artificial. But we are certainly breeding ageneration of very
> > lazy caretakers who are rapidly farming off the directions on the back
> of a
> > plastic bottle and under the doctrines of accountants and the banksters.
> >
> > A and H are synthetic imitation attempts at production to the detriment
> of
> > the consumer. Have we forgotten the experiment that lead to the movie on
> > eating only Macdonalds ? "Super Size Me " ?. Then of course there is the
> > Mollisonism "The Bruce Effect"
> >
> > For optimal health we need connection to the real qualities of soil and
> > water. Artificial systems do not offer this. We do not need artificial
> > inputs either to develop best water and soil. But, a far greater
> > understanding of what exists in nature and all its realms in order to
> > develop patterns and processes and procedures to get there. If one can
> not
> > or will not respect this reality then its time for another Permaculture
> > Design Course by a tutor that will explore and instill these realities
> in
> > all the teachings. ...Steve Hart
> >
> > Seems to me there is a hell of a lot more learning and realisation needed
> > for this debate to progress anywhere...Steve Hart
> >
> >
> > On 31 December 2013 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 04:35:51 -0500
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free |
> Hulu
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CA+j2Q+CUC1q0eNmpu9-vG1cGEcBKh6w2d1cmgkMRkwHnWRwByA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu
> http://www.hulu.com/watch/397072
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 17:37:54 +0100
> From: georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Aquaponics: artificial?
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <C8AE4B03-D716-47CB-92C0-AB81839926A5@gmx.at>
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>
> I am feeding with homemade pellets - I make them from organic oil
> press cake (hemp, almond, sesame and linseed), whole meal spelt flour,
> and a little rockdust. All of it purchased, I admit. I grow my own
> duckweed to supplement. For next season I plan to set up my BSF larvae
> production (with setting up the main system I could not focus on that,
> and it failed), and a tank growing a small native crawfish on tree
> leaves and veggy scraps for fich food .
>
> Georg
>
>
> Am 30.12.2013 um 18:43 schrieb Pete Gasper, Gasper Family Farm:
>
> > To me, fish food is a huge input, and one that is often
> > unsustainable. What
> > examples do you know of that do it without fish food inputs (or very
> > little)?
> >
> > Pete
> >
> > On 12/29/2013 02:57 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >> Almost none of that is the case for aquaponics. It is a low-input,
> >> closed loop system, very different. Fish food is the primary input,
> >> though I know of systems that use almost no purchased fish food.
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> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 3
> ********************************************
>



--
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart




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