permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

North American Permaculture Convergence
 
Hello from Michael Skeeter Pilarski on
behalf of a newly forming team, 
 
Steve Hart is wondering what is
happening with the North American Permaculture Convergence proposal.  I 
imagine there might be a few rumors
floating around. So here is a preliminary announcement. 
 
At the recent International
Permaculture Convergence in Cuba, two meeting were held on the topic of 
holding
a North American Permaculture Convergence. Four people from the Center for 
Deep
Ecology (near Minneapolis, Minnesota) offered their venue as a site for a 
North
American permaculture convergence the last weekend of August 2014. CDE has a
venue (Harmony Park) which hosts events of over 1,000 people. They feel it
would work for a large pc convergence.  
 
I joined the conversation after the IPC
event and am now part of the effort. The initial organizing group from the 
Cuba
meetings has not evolved to the point to field the large amount of feedback
that would result from a public announcement. Of course, we want to invite
everyone to the table and create a broad-based endeavor from all regions of 
the
continent.  
 
It is exciting that finally a North
American convergence is taking shape. We anticipate a broad-based event that
will fulfill many functions.   A further
announcement with more details will be sent out to this list and to the 
general
movement, most likely the first week of January if not before. 

 



On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 2:03 PM, Steve Hart 
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Great threads of a very valuable continuing debate and realisation of the
cats that we all are. I recognise the constant challenge to recognise the
global family that we are that is made up of many challenging social
ecologies. We are a diverse mix. And, within Permaculture principles we
recognise strength and resilience in diversity. The challenge often is to
recognise it, celebrate it and design for it. But then to observe it evolve
and see what sprouts what dies and recognise the forces at play. But how do
we maintain and develop that diversity and respect it ?

Perhaps IPC11 Cuba and its personality was the "Cuban Way" ? I presume the
conf supported London as the next hosts, IPC12, and also gave guidance and
support for the next IPC13 as per the recommendations veted some time ago ?

Bob, sounds like YOU may have to stimulate the Nth American Continental
Conference. Many fingers point at Skeeta as nudging something but as yet we
so no evidence of anything on these airwaves. IMO all it takes is for some
one person to stand up and initiate it. I entered this very topic a while
back probably not long after IPC10 Jordan in fact, due to discussion there.
And in my warm fuzzy basket thought Pine Ridge would be a great
venue...with many great challenges. Albert Bates responded with very
positive suggestion and enthusiasm, recalling historical events. So Bob
with your expertise, wisdom and knowledge of many cracks and loop-holes is
it worth launching a call for an organising group ? I have experience
myself in convening a few mtgs of various scale ...but done through the old
process of one individuals energy, drive, vision and concepts.

How would a framework look as a design exercise for such an event ? Perhaps
?

1. Client
2. Needs Brief
3. Image / Concept
4. Team(s)
5. Processes

6. Budget
7. Marketing/Advertising/Sponsorship

8. Theme
9. Agenda(s)
10. Outcomes

Perhaps, like the IPCs there was the guiding direction to consider as a
priority to revolve IPCs from nth to sth hemisphere from 1st world to 3rd
world. Perhaps similar themes could evolve with the evolution and
development of NACPCCC...if so, how many different bio-omes, or social
ecologies, are core to NA ?

So...I do look fwd to evolving debate and developments.....and also far
more communication from Scott Pittman...often far too silent IMO....Steve
Hart


On 24 December 2013 07:09, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:42 PM, A Sampson-Kelly <
> april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
>
> > IPC11 Musings
> >
> > I will not bore you with the sadness I felt at being in a political
> > environment in a political country nursing a naive hope that we could
> > find widespread solidarity and companionship.
> > I must point out, however, that the so called "gate crashers" to the
> > event were openly encouraged. Even on the opening day the web page still
> > stated clearly that people could just turn up and pay on the day.
> > [More fool me, as I had paid 4 months before for a tour that got cut by
> > a day and half and I was offered no refund.]
> >
> >
> I hope the conference organizers learned from that, next time around that
> 20-20 hindsight will be useful, to say the least.
>
>
> > We are a movement that should be maturing, mastering a degree of
> > organisation and structure, not one that is so easily derailed by chaos.
> > I absolutely agree, it felt like the Cubans were trying to herd cats.
> >
>
> Absolutely. I see a mindset developing amongst forward thinking
> permaculture professionals and
> those who benefit from their work and distribute knowledge gained
> throughout their circles of friends and extended circles.
> This could be a mindset that generates a migration toward a future
> permaculture commons that embraces working standards and encourages use of
> all aspects of permaculture throughout the world for diverse purposes
> consistent with the vision of the most creative of the movement's leaders,
> people such as Mollison himself, Scott, Steve, Toby, Holmgren Holzer, Bane
> and many others who would like to see their vision become reality.
> This is the stuff of pipe dreams, a hopeful message to ponder during a
> season when we can reflect, nurture new ideas and create plans for the
> future.
>
>
> > If I want to herd cats, I will not make them wait 4 hours for lunch
> > queuing in the sun, feed them cabbage every day,
> > deprive them of sleep by putting 7 people in a room, belting loud
> > Western Music until 3am, keep moving the times and venues of the program
> > so they wander aimlessly around a resort
>
>
> Gatecrashers should have had some sense of protocol and been prepared to
> provide for themselves.
>
>
> > yes, I am a grumpy old lady. (I have moved on from ornery to grumpy).
> > Luckily, I got grumpy enough to ensure that future convergences will
> > work well, they will be inclusive, organised and well supplied.
> > For Christmas sake - Even a tree knows which way is up.
> >
> > PS, merry Christmas my old buddy LL
> > April Sampson-Kelly
> >
> >
> And Merry Christmas to you and your family, April! A big Ole for you and
> all the excellent work you have done over the years
> and a hope that 2014 will be a year that forges exciting new frontiers for
> permaculture!
>
> Christmas Cheer to everyone in the list!
>
> LL
>
>
> > --
> >
> > *April S-Kelly*
> > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia
> > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> > We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > old-fashioned paper.*
> >
> > On 23/12/2013 4:00 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > >      permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >      http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > >      permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >      permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > >     1. IPC 11 Cuba Musings + (Steve Hart)
> > >     2. Re: IPC 11 Cuba Musings + (Neil Bertrando)
> > >     3. Re: IPC 11 Cuba Musings + (Lawrence London)
> > >     4. Forest Gardening > Documentary Addict [Robert Hart, his
> > >        famous forest garden, Ken Fern of Plants for a Future, a segment
> > >        on urban gardening] (Lawrence London)
> > >     5. A challenge for the permaculture community. Isaac Asimov's
> > >        1964 predictions of life in 2014 are prescient : TreeHugger
> > >        (Lawrence London)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 09:59:29 +1300
> > > From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [permaculture] IPC 11 Cuba Musings +
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > >       <CALkGY+rc+1W==
> > YDgYXrJK5+rM6CnLmUXvQfVCdVnGvc6wRg1uA@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >
> > > good viewpoints there Scott n Andrew. Some may say you are becoming a
> > > grumpy ol'man there Scott....but I do sympathise with you. Being a PC
> > > purist my self I have commented many a time on the watering down of
> many
> > > elements of Permaculture. Where many many things toady are called PC
> > which
> > > are very firmly not. So what do we do about it ?    Simple, strengthen
> > > every aspect..quite simple in theory. In practice, well quite a
> strategic
> > > challenge. Is it worth it ? What are the consequences if we do nothing
> ?
> > > The recent conference series of the European
> > >   Permaculture Teachers Network goes a long way to evolving this
> > strategic
> > > journey...perhaps its time Scott, Andrew et al to call a Nth American
> PC
> > > Teachers convergence and ask delegates from Europe to assist..or
> > otherwise
> > > send a few Nth Americans to the last two conferences in Europe. The
> last
> > is
> > > in July in Bulgaria in association with the European Conference...any
> > > takers ?...Steve Hart
> > >
> > >
> > > IPC11 Musings
> > >> It had been 3 years since my last visit to Havana and the change was
> > >> shocking.  Many more automobiles spewing smoke from 1950's models of
> > Ford,
> > >> Chevy, Olds, Pontiacs and various other brands was throat tightening
> and
> > >> eye
> > >> watering.
> > >>
> > >> I was in Havana for the International Permaculture Convergence.  The
> > first
> > >> event was a gala dinner in an old estate in the heart of Havana.  The
> > place
> > >> was packed and there was panic among our hosts from Fundacion Antonio
> > Nunez
> > >> de la Naturaleza y el Hombre as the numbers continued to grow and they
> > >> scrambled for more place settings, tables, and chairs.  The problem
> was
> > >> that
> > >> over 140 unexpected guests had arrived who had not RSVPed their
> > intention
> > >> to
> > >> attend.  This set the stage for a chaotic two weeks of trying to
> > >> accommodate
> > >> 25% more people than had been planned for.  It was also apparent to me
> > that
> > >> most of the attendants of this event were there to party rather than
> > deal
> > >> with the many issues facing the rapidly growing International
> > Permaculture
> > >> movement.
> > >>
> > >> Permaculturalists from 47 nations descended on Cuba over 400 strong
> and
> > >> overwhelmed the organizational capabilities of our sponsors.
> > >>
> > >> The conference was held in a large Havana hotel and the speakers were
> > >> translated into English and Spanish for those of us who are language
> > >> challenged.  For the most part the speakers were English speakers who
> > >> represented both the well known and the unknown in the permaculture
> > world.
> > >> I was disappointed in the selections as I was hoping to hear from
> Latin
> > >> American permaculture which represents an incredible array of
> projects.
> >  A
> > >> majority of the presenters were from the U.S.A. and Australia.  I was
> > most
> > >> impressed by Tierra Martinez an Argentinian permaculturalist who
> > presented
> > >> on projects both urban and rural that are making a difference in the
> > lives
> > >> of thousands of people through the work of his organization Instituto
> Na
> > >> Luum.
> > >>
> > >> While the presentations of Albert Bates, Robyn Francis, Andy Goldring,
> > and
> > >> surprise guest  Darren Doherty were very educational and exciting I
> was
> > >> still left with the question of where are the  Latinos.
> > >>
> > >> My sympathy and admiration went to the translators who were faced with
> > >> multiple English and Spanish idioms and with speakers who seemed
> unaware
> > >> that they needed to take into account that their words were being
> > converted
> > >> to another language.  The translators continued with us for the rest
> of
> > the
> > >> journey, through the convergence and on the tour and did an incredible
> > job
> > >> against all odds.  Herding cats comes to mind.
> > >>
> > >> The conference began what was to be a pattern of standing in line for
> > >> meals,
> > >> and standing in line for accommodations; sometimes for over 2 hours!
> >  This
> > >> was again the surprise guests who suddenly materialized the night
> before
> > >> the
> > >> conference.  This of course threw the whole schedule of speakers off
> and
> > >> Roberto Sanchez, known for his role in the video "Building Community",
> > was
> > >> doing everything except pulling out his hair, and he may have done
> some
> > of
> > >> that.
> > >>
> > >> Our final day in Havana was an urban tour of permaculture projects.  I
> > had
> > >> seen most of the projects three years ago so I only went on the
> morning
> > >> half
> > >> of the tour.   I once again was disappointed in most of what I saw.
> >  This
> > >> was definantly not permaculture! Sorry.  It reminded me of the
> > ubiquitous
> > >> "herb spiral" which monotonously decorates every first permaculture
> > design.
> > >> I saw keyhole gardens where the key hole was too small to accommodate
> > the
> > >> knees of the gardener, paths that were considerable larger than the
> > >> vegetable beds, and a shocking lack of food amidst the ornamentals.  I
> > >> certainly appreciated the proud gardeners as they took us through
> their
> > >> home
> > >> gardens pointing out the salient parts but it seemed more beginning
> > "master
> > >> gardener" level than having been designed.
> > >>
> > >> Is this sour grapes?  I don't think so, I am attempting to inject a
> > little
> > >> realism into an event that took thousands of dollars, and gallons of
> > fuel
> > >> to
> > >> bring to fruition and I think that we should be more mindful of our
> > purpose
> > >> and more in engaged in the process than I feel was exhibited during
> this
> > >> IPC.
> > >>
> > >> I spent a lot of time reflecting on what is being taught, in the world
> > at
> > >> large, as permaculture?  Is there any continuity in permaculture
> design
> > >> from
> > >> country to country, how subjective is what is being taught, following
> > the
> > >> whims and limited knowledge of the teachers.  This is an important
> > thread
> > >> to
> > >> pursue and I will continue this journal of my Cuban trip in the next
> > >> segment
> > >> "the convergence" where I discuss my presentations of "Capitalism and
> > >> Permaculture", "Permaculture Professional Standards", and "Developing
> a
> > >> "Permaculture International Aid and Relief Group".  These are all
> > subjects
> > >> dear to my heart and, much to my surprise, were well received.
> > >>
> > >> Lest I sound dour and curmudgeonly I would like to say over all my
> > >> experience was a very positive one and this was the result of many
> > >> conversations with new and old friends who all share my concerns
> > regarding
> > >> the state of the world and permaculture.
> > >>
> > >> Scott Pittman
> > >> www.permaculture.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 2
> > >> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:53:17 -0800
> > >> From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC11 Musings
> > >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>          <
> > >> CAKo1s6EAuxqFDaced0qg8GZy9VE8eoRuyW6P-KeFQQyf_1-hXg@mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the reflections, Scott, and the honest assessment of the
> > first
> > >> part of the event from your perspective. I found the sub-theme of the
> > whole
> > >> trip very interesting: how our small society dealt with the logistical
> > >> chaos, which you are attributing to the 140 event crashers which
> pushed
> > the
> > >> planning and infrastructure over the edge.
> > >>
> > >> I'm not refuting your statements, just adding a bit to what you said.
> > >>
> > >> As far as the Havana tours, one thing that I found very valuable was
> > seeing
> > >> how the Permaculture flag was being waved at multiple locations within
> > >> neighborhoods, and imagined how many places it was seeping in to the
> > fabric
> > >> of the community that we couldn't see. Also where our guides explained
> > how
> > >> the government had officially recognized the value of sites, and gave
> > them
> > >> official recognition and protection, showed the level of support they
> > >> garnered. I would put my own neighborhood here in Corvallis, Oregon up
> > >> against them in a contest of urban food production density. (shouldn't
> > we
> > >> have "most food grown in the city" contests?). But it was fascinating
> to
> > >> observe their "activist" Permaculture systems, with signage and
> > intentional
> > >> community education.
> > >>
> > >> The 20 acre urban farm we saw that day had many interesting layers to
> > it as
> > >> well, from the mosaic of fields with productive hedgerows surrounding,
> > to
> > >> their large scale worm composting system, to the community enterprise
> > piece
> > >> that employed many with a diversity of types of yields.
> > >>
> > >> I reflected at the time that it would have been very hard for it to
> not
> > be
> > >> an amazing experience, simply for the opportunity to meet and connect
> > with
> > >> so many wonderful people and all of the communication on so many
> topics
> > >> that occurred. I didn't know what to expect or have previous trips to
> > >> compare it with, so seeing it all with new eyes, I took the value
> that I
> > >> could from each facet.
> > >>
> > >> I appreciate hearing what Scott and others have to say about their
> > >> experience. It's good to get the collective memory out there to get
> the
> > >> most learning from it that we can.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Andrew
> > >>
> > >> Kia ora
> > > [image: Picture]
> > > *Steve Hart*
> > > Ecology Architect
> > > skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 18:08:09 -0800
> > > From: Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 11 Cuba Musings +
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > >       <
> > CAFJJ-qMHkPhwG1kUBwqYmHL4tws2Nau0RGM_qqgUhsmvfrzyDQ@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >
> > > Thanks for the suggestion and connections Steve.
> > >
> > > I think Skeeter has put out feelers for N Am convergences before and
> he's
> > > been instrumental in organizing the Inland NW PC convergences the past
> 3
> > > years.  There are several annual bioregional convergences and
> conferences
> > > here in N Am each year of varying quality, duration and content.
> > >
> > > I'm grateful for the work everyone is doing in their various areas.
>  It's
> > > not a simple matter to pull together a national network or professional
> > > organization type of conference.  I'm excited to see more and a
> continued
> > > broadening and credibility building set of gatherings to help us all
> > > increase our skill sets, competencies and connections to each other to
> > > support the work that's needed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Steve Hart
> > > <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> good viewpoints there Scott n Andrew. Some may say you are becoming a
> > >> grumpy ol'man there Scott....but I do sympathise with you. Being a PC
> > >> purist my self I have commented many a time on the watering down of
> many
> > >> elements of Permaculture. Where many many things toady are called PC
> > which
> > >> are very firmly not. So what do we do about it ?    Simple, strengthen
> > >> every aspect..quite simple in theory. In practice, well quite a
> > strategic
> > >> challenge. Is it worth it ? What are the consequences if we do
> nothing ?
> > >> The recent conference series of the European
> > >>   Permaculture Teachers Network goes a long way to evolving this
> > strategic
> > >> journey...perhaps its time Scott, Andrew et al to call a Nth American
> PC
> > >> Teachers convergence and ask delegates from Europe to assist..or
> > otherwise
> > >> send a few Nth Americans to the last two conferences in Europe. The
> > last is
> > >> in July in Bulgaria in association with the European Conference...any
> > >> takers ?...Steve Hart
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> IPC11 Musings
> > >>> It had been 3 years since my last visit to Havana and the change was
> > >>> shocking.  Many more automobiles spewing smoke from 1950's models of
> > >> Ford,
> > >>> Chevy, Olds, Pontiacs and various other brands was throat tightening
> > and
> > >>> eye
> > >>> watering.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was in Havana for the International Permaculture Convergence.  The
> > >> first
> > >>> event was a gala dinner in an old estate in the heart of Havana.  The
> > >> place
> > >>> was packed and there was panic among our hosts from Fundacion Antonio
> > >> Nunez
> > >>> de la Naturaleza y el Hombre as the numbers continued to grow and
> they
> > >>> scrambled for more place settings, tables, and chairs.  The problem
> was
> > >>> that
> > >>> over 140 unexpected guests had arrived who had not RSVPed their
> > intention
> > >>> to
> > >>> attend.  This set the stage for a chaotic two weeks of trying to
> > >>> accommodate
> > >>> 25% more people than had been planned for.  It was also apparent to
> me
> > >> that
> > >>> most of the attendants of this event were there to party rather than
> > deal
> > >>> with the many issues facing the rapidly growing International
> > >> Permaculture
> > >>> movement.
> > >>>
> > >>> Permaculturalists from 47 nations descended on Cuba over 400 strong
> and
> > >>> overwhelmed the organizational capabilities of our sponsors.
> > >>>
> > >>> The conference was held in a large Havana hotel and the speakers were
> > >>> translated into English and Spanish for those of us who are language
> > >>> challenged.  For the most part the speakers were English speakers who
> > >>> represented both the well known and the unknown in the permaculture
> > >> world.
> > >>> I was disappointed in the selections as I was hoping to hear from
> Latin
> > >>> American permaculture which represents an incredible array of
> projects.
> > >>   A
> > >>> majority of the presenters were from the U.S.A. and Australia.  I was
> > >> most
> > >>> impressed by Tierra Martinez an Argentinian permaculturalist who
> > >> presented
> > >>> on projects both urban and rural that are making a difference in the
> > >> lives
> > >>> of thousands of people through the work of his organization Instituto
> > Na
> > >>> Luum.
> > >>>
> > >>> While the presentations of Albert Bates, Robyn Francis, Andy
> Goldring,
> > >> and
> > >>> surprise guest  Darren Doherty were very educational and exciting I
> was
> > >>> still left with the question of where are the  Latinos.
> > >>>
> > >>> My sympathy and admiration went to the translators who were faced
> with
> > >>> multiple English and Spanish idioms and with speakers who seemed
> > unaware
> > >>> that they needed to take into account that their words were being
> > >> converted
> > >>> to another language.  The translators continued with us for the rest
> of
> > >> the
> > >>> journey, through the convergence and on the tour and did an
> incredible
> > >> job
> > >>> against all odds.  Herding cats comes to mind.
> > >>>
> > >>> The conference began what was to be a pattern of standing in line for
> > >>> meals,
> > >>> and standing in line for accommodations; sometimes for over 2 hours!
> > >>   This
> > >>> was again the surprise guests who suddenly materialized the night
> > before
> > >>> the
> > >>> conference.  This of course threw the whole schedule of speakers off
> > and
> > >>> Roberto Sanchez, known for his role in the video "Building
> Community",
> > >> was
> > >>> doing everything except pulling out his hair, and he may have done
> some
> > >> of
> > >>> that.
> > >>>
> > >>> Our final day in Havana was an urban tour of permaculture projects.
>  I
> > >> had
> > >>> seen most of the projects three years ago so I only went on the
> morning
> > >>> half
> > >>> of the tour.   I once again was disappointed in most of what I saw.
> >  This
> > >>> was definantly not permaculture! Sorry.  It reminded me of the
> > ubiquitous
> > >>> "herb spiral" which monotonously decorates every first permaculture
> > >> design.
> > >>> I saw keyhole gardens where the key hole was too small to accommodate
> > the
> > >>> knees of the gardener, paths that were considerable larger than the
> > >>> vegetable beds, and a shocking lack of food amidst the ornamentals.
>  I
> > >>> certainly appreciated the proud gardeners as they took us through
> their
> > >>> home
> > >>> gardens pointing out the salient parts but it seemed more beginning
> > >> "master
> > >>> gardener" level than having been designed.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is this sour grapes?  I don't think so, I am attempting to inject a
> > >> little
> > >>> realism into an event that took thousands of dollars, and gallons of
> > fuel
> > >>> to
> > >>> bring to fruition and I think that we should be more mindful of our
> > >> purpose
> > >>> and more in engaged in the process than I feel was exhibited during
> > this
> > >>> IPC.
> > >>>
> > >>> I spent a lot of time reflecting on what is being taught, in the
> world
> > at
> > >>> large, as permaculture?  Is there any continuity in permaculture
> design
> > >>> from
> > >>> country to country, how subjective is what is being taught, following
> > the
> > >>> whims and limited knowledge of the teachers.  This is an important
> > thread
> > >>> to
> > >>> pursue and I will continue this journal of my Cuban trip in the next
> > >>> segment
> > >>> "the convergence" where I discuss my presentations of "Capitalism and
> > >>> Permaculture", "Permaculture Professional Standards", and
> "Developing a
> > >>> "Permaculture International Aid and Relief Group".  These are all
> > >> subjects
> > >>> dear to my heart and, much to my surprise, were well received.
> > >>>
> > >>> Lest I sound dour and curmudgeonly I would like to say over all my
> > >>> experience was a very positive one and this was the result of many
> > >>> conversations with new and old friends who all share my concerns
> > >> regarding
> > >>> the state of the world and permaculture.
> > >>>
> > >>> Scott Pittman
> > >>> www.permaculture.org
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------
> > >>>
> > >>> Message: 2
> > >>> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:53:17 -0800
> > >>> From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> > >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC11 Musings
> > >>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >>> Message-ID:
> > >>>          <
> > >>> CAKo1s6EAuxqFDaced0qg8GZy9VE8eoRuyW6P-KeFQQyf_1-hXg@mail.gmail.com>
> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the reflections, Scott, and the honest assessment of the
> > first
> > >>> part of the event from your perspective. I found the sub-theme of the
> > >> whole
> > >>> trip very interesting: how our small society dealt with the
> logistical
> > >>> chaos, which you are attributing to the 140 event crashers which
> pushed
> > >> the
> > >>> planning and infrastructure over the edge.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not refuting your statements, just adding a bit to what you said.
> > >>>
> > >>> As far as the Havana tours, one thing that I found very valuable was
> > >> seeing
> > >>> how the Permaculture flag was being waved at multiple locations
> within
> > >>> neighborhoods, and imagined how many places it was seeping in to the
> > >> fabric
> > >>> of the community that we couldn't see. Also where our guides
> explained
> > >> how
> > >>> the government had officially recognized the value of sites, and gave
> > >> them
> > >>> official recognition and protection, showed the level of support they
> > >>> garnered. I would put my own neighborhood here in Corvallis, Oregon
> up
> > >>> against them in a contest of urban food production density.
> (shouldn't
> > we
> > >>> have "most food grown in the city" contests?). But it was fascinating
> > to
> > >>> observe their "activist" Permaculture systems, with signage and
> > >> intentional
> > >>> community education.
> > >>>
> > >>> The 20 acre urban farm we saw that day had many interesting layers to
> > it
> > >> as
> > >>> well, from the mosaic of fields with productive hedgerows
> surrounding,
> > to
> > >>> their large scale worm composting system, to the community enterprise
> > >> piece
> > >>> that employed many with a diversity of types of yields.
> > >>>
> > >>> I reflected at the time that it would have been very hard for it to
> not
> > >> be
> > >>> an amazing experience, simply for the opportunity to meet and connect
> > >> with
> > >>> so many wonderful people and all of the communication on so many
> topics
> > >>> that occurred. I didn't know what to expect or have previous trips to
> > >>> compare it with, so seeing it all with new eyes, I took the value
> that
> > I
> > >>> could from each facet.
> > >>>
> > >>> I appreciate hearing what Scott and others have to say about their
> > >>> experience. It's good to get the collective memory out there to get
> the
> > >>> most learning from it that we can.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Andrew
> > >>>
> > >>> Kia ora
> > >> [image: Picture]
> > >> *Steve Hart*
> > >> Ecology Architect
> > >> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list
> > >> maintenance:
> > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> Google message archive search:
> > >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> http://www.ipermie.net
> > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > integrated
> > >> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > >> nature-compatible human habitat
> > >>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 22:17:29 -0500
> > > From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] IPC 11 Cuba Musings +
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Message-ID:
> > >       <CA+j2Q+BHnFGqpcq8m=
> > de_NxGQtYNzvfkbHMVJXmv_5pmGceuog@mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Steve Hart <
> > stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> good viewpoints there Scott n Andrew. Some may say you are becoming a
> > >> grumpy ol'man there Scott....but I do sympathise with you. Being a PC
> > >> purist my self I have commented many a time on the watering down of
> many
> > >> elements of Permaculture. Where many many things toady are called PC
> > which
> > >> are very firmly not. So what do we do about it ?    Simple, strengthen
> > >> every aspect..quite simple in theory. In practice, well quite a
> > strategic
> > >> challenge. Is it worth it ? What are the consequences if we do
> nothing ?
> > >> The recent conference series of the European
> > >>   Permaculture Teachers Network goes a long way to evolving this
> > strategic
> > >> journey...perhaps its time Scott, Andrew et al to call a Nth American
> PC
> > >> Teachers convergence and ask delegates from Europe to assist..or
> > otherwise
> > >> send a few Nth Americans to the last two conferences in Europe. The
> > last is
> > >> in July in Bulgaria in association with the European Conference...any
> > >> takers ?...Steve Hart
> > >>
> > >
> > > This is a wonderful suggestion, Steve, good timely advice.
> > > A limited number of people will go long distances to attend
> > > convergences though for the teachers and consultants it should be
> viewed
> > as
> > > part of the cost of doing business, i.e. a necessity;
> > > still some will not be able to attend. What about everyone else?
> > potential
> > > teachers, designers, consultants as well as serious practitioners
> > > to name a few. Couldn't the PC professionals add to their websites a
> > > feature that serves to get people together and network them to move
> > closer
> > > to reaching the goals you have described
> > > and link one professional's site to another. For solidarity! For the
> > future
> > > of permaculture as WE envision it.
> > > The poseurs (you know who they are) are using the work of legitimate
> > > permaculture community members to further their own personal causes
> > without
> > > any thought of the future of the movement
> > > and making strides to bring permaculture to the lives of as many people
> > as
> > > possible around the world. You and I and others know the potential but
> > > making it happen is another matter.
> > >
> > > What about creating some kind of online portal that serves as a magnet
> to
> > > attract newbies and those already immersed in the practice of
> > permaculture,
> > > one that brings them to one place where they can then locate and visit
> > > other sites, forums, blogs, a hotlinked online encyclopedia of
> > permaculture
> > > connecting anyone and everyone serious about this discipline to the
> > > resources, individuals and organizations they are interested in.
> > >
> > > LL
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Lawrence F. London
> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Skype: lawrence.f.london
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>



-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
maintenance:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net 
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for 
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human 
habitat
>From stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 16:43:55 2013
Return-Path: <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
        id 2DFDAE9436; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 16:43:55 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on 
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
        DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham
        version=3.3.1
Received: from mail-ob0-f171.google.com (mail-ob0-f171.google.com
        [209.85.214.171])
        by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCE2E9433
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Tue, 24 Dec 2013 16:43:49 -0500 (EST)
Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id wp18so7057293obc.2
        for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:49 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.60.92.137 with SMTP id cm9mr23156065oeb.38.1387921429134;
        Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.60.16.226 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:43:49 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 10:43:49 +1300
Message-ID: 
<CALkGY+rSW86Wc_YRxLCv4S9SCAArGOCFhQTJ4+_A2EfHcgvnsQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: [permaculture] Future Scenarios
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
        <mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 21:43:55 -0000

In response to this paragraph

" I see a mindset developing amongst forward thinking
permaculture professionals and
those who benefit from their work and distribute knowledge gained
throughout their circles of friends and extended circles.
This could be a mindset that generates a migration toward a future
permaculture commons that embraces working standards and encourages use of
all aspects of permaculture throughout the world for diverse purposes
consistent with the vision of the most creative of the movement's leaders,
people such as Mollison himself, Scott, Steve, Toby, Holmgren Holzer, Bane
and many others who would like to see their vision become reality.
This is the stuff of pipe dreams, a hopeful message to ponder during a
season when we can reflect, nurture new ideas and create plans for the
future."

It is yet another subject very worthy of hard core debate and perhaps light
hearted discussion also. Having been around the PC scene since 1980...I do
reflect on many issues events and personalities. Also on the
generalisations and groupings also the stigma and titles. Also very much on
leadership, in all its forms. Also on the species man and its character,
how we are evolving in all its layers. Your list above LL is much longer
than this and can also fall into many different catergories. Good Bad and
Ugly to name but one grouping. However we are all part of the one family.
A very diverse family at that. The greater challenge I see is the need to
strengthen the core of what Permaculture is so as to avoid the watering
down of the whole subject but to strengthen it.  I recall the debate we had
on Aquaponics and Hydroponics where I think from memory only Scott and I
argued that neither fitted into Permaculture.  This to me is a classic
example of the watering down of Permaculture. No puns please. One PC
Principle I respond to most often is "Working with Nature, not against it".
Often, the complexity of this statement alone is far too mind boggling. But
the results are more than obvious in every walk of life.

I also recognise that Mollison was an extrovert and Holmgren an
introvert....both opposites that attracted. Mollison certainly used his
extrovert character to embellish, exaggerate, extrapolate and describe what
could be....often taken out of context and often too literally. Holmgren
has developed thinking on many critical inner workings equally as valuable
from a different perspective.

So as our leadership evolves to more of a commons with stronger guidelines
and models and perhaps rewards for excellence and critique on all levels,
lets keep stimulating the conference, the communication, the debate without
any restriction or censorship. For IMO the communication if kept open
assists in this evolution for all the GB&U...communication at all levels
will be our best tool for future scenarios....including conferences as part
of communication...conferences at all levels....Steve Hart