permaculture

[loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>]

Well it sounds like the Euros have the OG Certification sorted....  Here in 
the USA you really just have to know your farmer.  Or better grow it 
yourself.  That is the only way to be sure of what you are getting.

Loren Luyendyk
(805)-452-8249
Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.surferswithoutborders.org
www.globalpermaculture.com




> From: dhondt@eircom.net
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 22:52:09 +0100
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Certified Naturally Grown: An alternative label 
>   toorganic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Organic Certification is inherently a conflict of interest, as the "3rd 
> > Party Certifying Agency" gets paid to certify you, so they have a vested 
> > interest to pass you and grant you the Certification.  The inspectors 
> > could easily look the other way at violations, in order to get more 
> > customer$.  Now this becomes an issue of the moral standing of the 
> > certifying agency, and the likes of Quality Assurance International (QAI) 
> > or any of the other larger certifying agencies I would avoid.
> 
> In Europe :
> We had two certifying organisations here IOFGA and Organic Trust in Ireland 
> and they competed (maybe still do but I have been out of the game for a 
> while) with one another to have the highest moral standard.
> 
> >
> > Furthermore, you are allowed to use a restricted chemical in order to 
> > save 
> > a crop and not lose your certification:
> > "NOP Rule 205.672 which affects emergency pest and disease treatment,
> > only the specific crop which is sprayed could no longer be sold as
> > organic. The organic status of the fields themselves is not compromised. "
> 
> Never! Animals that got sick had to be seen by a vet (it was not allowed to 
> let an animal suffer) and that vet would need to put on paper what 
> medicines 
> he used. Animal would most likely never be concidered organic again. It was 
> especially forbidden to treat a herd or a flock completely just because 
> there were a few sick animals on the farm.
> And it was never allowed to use chemicals to save a crop. The only option 
> would have been to remove the crop there and then by mechanical means and 
> plant something else.
> >
> > So technically the soil has been doused with chemicals but the field is 
> > still organic.  Heh?
> 
> No, not organic for at least two years after the use of chemicals.
> 
> >
> > Recently our area was sprayed with imadacloprid (the neonicitinoid blamed 
> > for CCD) for the Asian citrus psyllid, organic growers included.  They 
> > did 
> > not lose their certification.
> 
> That would be unthinkable here for organic farmers/sellers would object 
> most 
> vociferously. If the general public got an idea that something like this 
> ever happened the whole organic scene would collapse and bancrupt all these 
> people.
> 
> >
> > One solution is to have a certification agency that does not get paid to 
> > certify people, likely a state or federal program (with its own inherent 
> > problems of beaurocracy).  This would make the certification more 
> > independent and remove the conflict of interest.
> 
> Could not work here for nobody, not the public and not the organic 
> producer, 
> would trust a government appointed certification agency. A few years ago 
> the 
> US put our government under extreme pressure to adopt American regulations 
> (some of which you pointed out above) and the whole organic world was up in 
> arms and made therm pull in their shit.
> John
> 
> >
> > Loren Luyendyk
> > (805)-452-8249
> > Accredited Permaculture Teacher, PRI-AUS
> > ISA Certified Arborist WE-7805A
> > www.sborganics.com
> > www.surferswithoutborders.org
> > www.globalpermaculture.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 21:51:26 -0500
> >> From: farmer1@gasperfarm.com
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Certified Naturally Grown: An alternative 
> >> label toorganic
> >>
> >> Yes well, America is well into the corruption stage of things and the
> >> infection runs from top to bottom.
> >>
> >> Pete
> >>
> >> On 09/01/2013 06:48 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> I have little faith in this label. I've known of several instances of
> >> >> farmers using the label while not certified or admittedly engaging in
> >> >> practices contrary to the cert and the organization did nothing.
> >> > That would most definitely not work over here in Europe. The organic
> >> > inspectors were very sharp and extremely competent. And really, it is 
> >> > not
> >> > that difficult to establish that fiddling would be going on. You only 
> >> > hve to
> >> > look at the natural vegetation to see if any weed killers were used. 
> >> > Turn
> >> > over a stone and you expect to find worms or worm holes and a slug or 
> >> > two.
> >> > The fiddlers would not be too intelligent anyway. And the penalty for 
> >> > being
> >> > found out would easily bancrupt the farm.
> >> >> Principles not paperwork. In the end inspections, paperwork, and
> >> >> certifications cannot make up for what is essentially a moral problem.
> >> >> What
> >> >> we need is personal integrity amoung farmers and a willingness to act 
> >> >> on
> >> >> them even if not profitable and be open about ones shortcomings.
> >> > And I agree with that of course.
> >> > John
> >> >> Pete
> >> >>
> >> >> On 08/20/2013 07:04 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> >> >>> Makes a lot of sense to me. We were certified organic for 14 years 
> >> >>> and
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> price for certification went up year after year but our income 
> >> >>> didn't. We
> >> >>> could see the time coming that we would need to borrow money to pay 
> >> >>> for
> >> >>> certification. The paperwork involved also was no longer doable. That
> >> >>> took
> >> >>> about a month's work for a person every year.
> >> >>> I know better than most the dangers of using unatural chemical ways 
> >> >>> and
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> eat our own produce after all. So of course we grow natural.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> John, no longer certified
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> SCHAGHTICOKE, N.Y.: Certified Naturally Grown: An alternative label 
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>> organic | Business | NewsObserver.com
> >> >>>> http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/08/17/3114829/naturally-grown-an-alternative.html
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