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Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course

From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 20:14:11 -0500

Anyone without a PDC can do pretty well learning permaculture with my nearly-cheap-as-dirt-399-thousand-word ebook on permaculture, downloadable for only US $1.99 at http://www.ipermie.net, as a PDF, which is also available in all the other ebook formats (Kindle, Apple i store, Nook, etc.

Permaculture, as a marketplace, comes in a variety of prices, there really is something for everybody.

Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
http://www.ipermie.net -- How to permaculture your urban lifestyle

On 6/8/2013 7:31 PM, Lawrence London wrote:

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:

LL...I thought I did respond...maybe got lost in Lemuria...again here

Titled "John Douglas' Problem...Solution ?

Hi John....as an old campaigner of PC...I congratulate you on your
successes in developing what you have in Panama. A close friend of mine has
business there and invited me several times....perhaps if I make it to
IPC11 in Cuba I may stop by. It seems to me that you have so much to offer
the region and it also then seems so valuable for you to actually
facilitate a very good PDC right at your doorstep. But, make sure you
engage a very well qualified and experienced teacher. Once you have
convened a PDC and participated fully then you will appreciate many more
values of the larger dynamic of what Permaculture offers. Go hard...this is
your next obvious journey....keep me posted...Steve Hart

LL....have you created a PDC at your back door too ?...Steve

No, why should I? I created and run this list, am a market gardener and a
woodworker's and gardener's tool maker. I was a landscape contractor
and yes it would be a perfect logical step to move from landscape design to
permaculture design. I wish now that I had followed that path
and in the process developed a PDC (after taking one myself) and an online
course. While I was off going in the wrong direction Dan Hemenway
developed wonderful PC resources and courses. Just ask Bob Waldrop.

I will repeat what I said to anyone whether they offer a PDC or not:

Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied in
their PDC's are to be applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded.
That's my take on it
based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's.

There are many ways to bring permaculture to the world to people with
plenty of money or people will little means.
The substance of the course is what is important. Synergy created by a
group taking the course is also very important.

As Alan Chadwick said:

Allen Chadwick said, "We need to create the beauty and the quality first.
The quantity will follow."

LL

On 9 June 2013 11:26, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to mre that if a PDC teacher has spent a lifetime learning
permaculture, building a PC knowledgebase,
collecting and organizing information archives consisting of his and

others

writings, gleaning the best that is available
over decades of listening, reading and learning and that teacher infuses
his PDC with the distilled essence of his knowkedgebase
then you have in that PODC the best that person has to offer, in other
words his or her Magnum Opus. If his or her PDC is offered once a year
at a price of $1000 per student and twenty students take the online
course, that is $20,000 per year income if that is his or her only source
of financial gain. Subtract, taxes, course overhead expenses and you have
pretty meager income.

Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied

in

their PDC's are to be
applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded. That's my take on

it

based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's. Anyone else have

comments?

Steve Hart?

LL

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com

wrote:

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 6:32 PM, john douglas <
johnarthurdouglas99@yahoo.com> wrote:

I want to some day take a PDC course. Meanwhile, I bought some
Permaculture and related books. About 80 books that cost $200.00.

Meanwhile, in the last 4 years i have given tours in my Permaculture
farm, in Panama, to maybe 1500 people, talks to maybe 2500 more and

have

had 200?? volunteers, various who have taken PDCs, and a few who have

had

their own Permaculture farms. we all learned.

That's the way forward. You are doing great work, John.

A lot of lives have been changed here in various positive ways.

yes, i want to take a PDC course on line or live some day.

but to pay $1000.00 for an on line course, i find the idea offensive

and

contrary to Permaculture principles.
IT AINT NECESSARY AT ALL.

It depends on what is being offered. Correspondence courses can be very
valuable whether online or paper or a combination..
If the online PDC provides to subscribers literature for you to

download

and print out, videos, galleries of photographs,
drawings and plans organized collection of documents, plus do all the
advertisinf and promotion, subscription and financial management
and all legal liabilities associated, that can be well worth $1000,
easily. The devil is in the details in this case. If the teacher pays
himself $25 per hour to
create, process, put online all the above resources listed plus pay for
server space, ISP fee, shopping cart, and ongoing management of the
curriculum
during the course, correspond with subscribers, answer questions, give
advice and guidance. For a good, robust course that lasts over a period

of

six to eight weeks
$1000 could be considered a bargain. Of course there are plenty of
scambags that give online PDC's a bad name but those types can be
completely ignored.

LL

john Don Perezoso = The Lazy Farmer ....THE SECRET IS IN THE GARBAGE

WEBSITE English http://www.organicpanamapermaculture.com/

SITIO de WEB Español

http://organicopanamapermacultura.yolasite.com/

Spanish Videos
VIDEO desde Pecha Kucha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmmOKk3gH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfQkPdiZWRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCajj2rfEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO39F9beTNQ

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To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 125, Issue 15

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: New online Certificate course (Andrew Millison)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:32:44 -0700
From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>, Deston Denniston
<abundancepc@gmail.com>, Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>,

Albert

Bates
<albert@thefarm.org>, Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>
Message-ID:
<

CAKo1s6EWVhHYeoQQTWbLc3W5MjqcoFByTZhNp1VZda_v0GmV-A@mail.gmail.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello,
As a follow up to this conversation, I wrote an article about online
Permaculture education, for anyone who wants to explore the subject

more

deeply. It's a bit long to paste in an e-mail, so here's the link:

http://www.beaverstatepermaculture.com/profiles/blogs/e-pdc-the-case-for-online-permaculture-education

Enjoy the day!

Andrew

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello Christopher,

Thank you for your feedback on the value of on-line pdcs. I thought

it

was the most in-depth comparison I have seen thus far and certainly

agree

with your assessment.

In-person pdcs have a lot more depth to them than on-line courses.

That

said, I believe there is still room for on-line courses. But people

should

sign on to them knowing what they are missing. I wouldn't be

surprised

that people who take on-line courses are good candidates to sign up

for

on

the ground pdcs later on. So it is not either/or but both have

their

own

values. An on-line course may be inferior in general but they are

good

to

serve the people who can only do the on-line course for whatever

reason(s).

The movement should come up with more ways to assess the quality of
on-line courses being offered as well as in-the-flesh pdcs. A
high-quality, on-line course can be better then some of the more

inferior

residential or weekend courses. Right now all we have is informal

gossip.

It is great to hear how you have continued with your pdc work and

reaching

so many people in Belize. "Good on you", as they say in Australia.

I

am

pleased to have you on my list of students who are teaching pdcs.

Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds

Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski

________________________________
From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>; Keith Johnson <

keithdj@mindspring.com>;

Colin Doyle <colin@lostvalley.org>; Rich Blaha <rblaha@abrinc.com>;
Albert Bates <albert@thefarm.org>; Peter Bane <

pcactivist@comcast.net

;

Deston Denniston <abundancepc@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course

I have been busy and wanted to chime in on this, echoing some of

what

has

been said: I think, for me, that I feel an aspect of the in the

flesh

PDC

that would have to be missing is the fellowship of being in one

place,

the

community of group learning. I took my PDC in 1991, and it was
transformative, literally. My farm is the fruit of that. Part of

what

I

walked away with was imparted by interacting with other students

during

the

design phase, and during the presentation of the course material.

There

was

one emotional meltdown during the PDC, one bickering feud that

flowered

into yelling (one of the two participants was me), early morning

coffee,

late night conversations, and several romances that blossomed, grew

and

dissipated, or became full fledged relationships. I met my ex-wife

during

that PDC. So much of what I experienced was related to human beings

and

interactions, site observation, walking, eating, sitting, talking.

That

was

a huge part of what
I walked away with. T
he wisdom and teaching talent of Michael Pilarski, Rick Valley,

Chuck

Marsh, Jose Caballero and Mark Cohen would be hard to put into an

online

format.

One of the things I have observed in the PDC I attended, which

Michael

was

the lead teacher of, and in the eight PDCs I have hosted and

co-taught

is

the amount of instant feedback available to students. Students

frequently

have questions tied to an aspect of the curriculum that can be

expanded

on.

In the courses I have co-taught, Albert, for example, is fantastic

at

this,

so is Toby Hemenway. I have seen this many times with Albert, who

may

be

teaching something and one of the students will ask a question,

related,

but tangential to the topic, and Albert steps back, answers the

question,

ties it to other things, shows how it is in relation to the larger

topic,

or a topic previously discussed, and moves forward. I love these

downloads

because they are responsive and dynamic and informative. How can a

static

format like an online course be like that? I don't think they can

be.

I attended Antioch College a long time ago. I loved some of my

classes,

Harold Wrights "Cultural History of Japan", for example. I loved his
teaching. A few years ago, I took an online course in grant writing.

It

was

good, and there was some feedback and interplay between students

through

the "chalboard.com" media. I got a 4.0, a sort of triumphant return

to

academia after my meteoric Antioch College experience. I liked it. I

found

it informative, especially since the subject was all about writing,

about

how to prepare a statement of need that will make funders weep and

reach

for pens and checkbooks, and subsequently lay down the ways you

intend

to

address the target issue, but I wonder how much I might have learned

in

an

actual classroom. It was nothing like watching John Ronsheim (sp)

teach

a

music class, animated, moving, flowing, changes of tone in speech,

change

in facial expressions, humor, sarcasm, surprise, dismay, and, above

all, a

palpable and
genuine love of music.
I didn't take his class, but merely sat in on one class, one day,

and

walked away with at least an appreciation of what a Good Teacher can

to

when presenting material they care about. In that one 90 minute

class,

there were so many subtle and nuanced relationships to the subject

matter

that, now, close to 30 years later, I remember it vividly. Can a day

on

the

internet give you that?

Then there is the question of pedagogy to target audience. In the 8

PDCs I

have hosted, we have taught close to 70 Belizeans. Some were funded

by

external agencies, most were scholarships that we provided with the
cooperation of the teachers. Some of the students were mid-level

people in

the Ministry of Agriculture, Belizeans who have been trained in

schools,

have a high degree of written literacy. Some were part time

extension

officers, full time farmers, farmers whose primary language is

either

Kekchi or Mopan Maya, and who can read and write, but whose literacy

is

profoundly visual/botanic. Most farmers are not well served by
chalkboard/classroom method of information transfer. Their literacy

is

not

"academic". Their strengths are visual, with a high degree of

botanic

literacy. They walk through the farm and GET IT. They see what is

working,

and what is not. They know most of the plants and hone in on plants

they do

not know. Most of them have no
access to computers or co
mputer literacy. That is an audience that an online PDC cannot

reach.

Yet

they are the people who can IMMEDIATELY apply the information they

are

exposed to to their land.

Can a PDC be presented in an online format? Not the PDC I took,

with a

lot

of hands on work, a host of teachers with deep knowledge bases,

students in

comradery, fellowship, field visits to amazing farmers, and

certainly

not

the ones I co-teach, which are heavy on evidence, using the venue of

my

farm as a way to present permaculture practices, decades in the

making,

well developed, having been actively managed with permaculture in

mind

for

over 20 years, and field visits to some of those same amazing

farmers.

Can

the internet make a batch of biochar? Can the internet collect food

to

send

to an elderly feeding program? Can you walk in the shade of an

agroforestry

system designed and maintained for the last 24 years on the

internet?

Can

the internet put hand in compost? Can the internet sit in the light

of a

light bulb powered by photovoltaics (well, yes, if the system is

solar

powered...)? Can the internet use an A frame level and dig a swale?

Not

really.
The internet is flat.
The textures can be rendered, but always in two dimensions. There

is

no

smell, no taste, no changing sunlight, no early morning coffee, no

late

night conversation, no legs touching legs on a bench, no squeak of

chalk on

a chalk board. I would not consider them to be equal in any way. I

am

not

saying that an online PDC cannot impart a lot of information, it

definitely

can, but the information will be flatter than a textured, dynamic

and

flowing PDC in flesh and blood, with dirt under fingernails, groups

of

people talking with passion, and cold coffee in 3/4 empty mugs.

And $2200 for an internet course in permaculture? Sorry, but I do

not

see

that! There are so many great flesh and blood courses out there for

about

half that, why would anyone take an online course for $2200?

I don't see the need for a class like this.

_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm

On May 4, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Rhonda Baird wrote:

Bill Wilson at Midwest Permaculture offers a partial online

experience.

People do self-study for the first week's content and come

together

at a

location to do a second week in person. I know that has been in

place

for

some years.

I have to say that I have been developing an interest in

organizing

an

on-line course in combination with a shorter periods of in-person

support.

I'm surprised at my own interest and the logic driving it, as I

strongly

prefer in-person, face-to-face experiences. I am particularly

thinking of

pairing with my state's technical schools as a good place to

work. I

think

one of the keys--and Andrew Millison seems to do this well--is to

provide

community online and personal mentoring and support for practical

work on

the ground where the student is located. While less perfect than a
residential course, I do think this has its place as time goes on

and

worth

careful exploration.

I have been part of an online community for 14 years that does its
education and community-building online punctuated by optional

weekend

intensives. In fact, I run a portion of the online educational

programs,

so

I know there are a number of challenges and benefits. There are

lots

of

options now--compared to 1998 when I got involved.

walk in peace,
Rhonda Baird

On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Michael Pilarski <
friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:

I would like to see a comparative review of all the on-line pc

design

courses offered. Prices, etc. Dan Hemenway has offered them for

years.

I

believe there are others in Australia ? (pre Geoff L). I have

deep

respect

for Andrew Millison and Marisha Auerbach who are offering a new

on-line

course. Who are the others?

I would also like to hear some comments by people who have gone

through

an

on-line pdc. They would be the best people to judge how well it

works.

If

there is no one on this list serve who has done an on-line course

that

is

not a good sign. If there is no one who has taken an on-line

course

that

would give it good marks that is not a good sign.

I think on-line courses have their place, but just like

residential

or

weekend pdcs they are not all created equal.

As Peter Bane opines, $2200 for Geoff Lawton's online pdc is not

a

good

deal. Geoff L. says his course is limited in size? How

limited, I

would

like to know.

Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
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*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
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[permaculture] New online Certificate course, john douglas, 06/07/2013
- Message not available
  - Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course, Lawrence London, 06/08/2013
    - Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course, Steve Hart, 06/08/2013
      - Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course, Lawrence London, 06/08/2013
        
        Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course, Bob Waldrop, 06/08/2013