permaculture

[Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>]

Hi John....as an old campaigner of PC...I congratulate you on your
successes in developing what you have in Panama. A close friend of mine has
business there and invited me several times....perhaps if I make it to
IPC11 in Cuba I may stop by. It seems to me that you have so much to offer
the region and it also then seems so valuable for you to actually
facilitate a very good PDC right at your doorstep. But, make sure you
engage a very well qualified and experienced teacher. Once you have
convened a PDC and participated fully then you will appreciate many more
values of the larger dynamic of what Permaculture offers. Go hard...this is
your next obvious journey....keep me posted...Steve Hart


On 8 June 2013 10:32, john douglas <johnarthurdouglas99@yahoo.com> wrote:

>  I want to some day take a PDC course. Meanwhile,  I  bought some
> Permaculture and related books. About 80 books that cost $200.00.
>
> Meanwhile, in the last 4 years i have given tours  in my Permaculture
> farm, in Panama, to maybe 1500 people, talks to maybe 2500 more and have
> had 200?? volunteers, various who have taken PDCs, and a few who have had
> their own Permaculture farms. we all learned.
>
> A lot of lives have been changed here in various positive ways.
>
> yes, i want to take a PDC course on line or live some day.
>
> but to pay $1000.00 for an on line course, i find the idea offensive and
> contrary to Permaculture principles.
> IT AINT NECESSARY AT ALL.
>
>
>
>
> john   Don Perezoso = The Lazy Farmer ....THE SECRET IS IN THE GARBAGE
>
>
> WEBSITE    English    http://www.organicpanamapermaculture.com/
>
>
> SITIO de WEB   Español    http://organicopanamapermacultura.yolasite.com/
>
>
> Spanish Videos
> VIDEO desde Pecha Kucha
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmmOKk3gH8
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfQkPdiZWRU
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCajj2rfEY
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO39F9beTNQ
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: "permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <
> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:00 AM
> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 125, Issue 15
>
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: New online Certificate course (Andrew Millison)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:32:44 -0700
> From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>,    Deston Denniston
>     <abundancepc@gmail.com>, Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>,    Albert
> Bates
>     <albert@thefarm.org>, Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>
> Message-ID:
>     <CAKo1s6EWVhHYeoQQTWbLc3W5MjqcoFByTZhNp1VZda_v0GmV-A@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello,
> As a follow up to this conversation, I wrote an article about online
> Permaculture education, for anyone who wants to explore the subject more
> deeply. It's a bit long to paste in an e-mail, so here's the link:
>
>
> http://www.beaverstatepermaculture.com/profiles/blogs/e-pdc-the-case-for-online-permaculture-education
>
> Enjoy the day!
>
> Andrew
>
>
> On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Christopher,
> >
> > Thank you for your feedback on the value of on-line pdcs.  I thought it
> > was the most in-depth comparison I have seen thus far and certainly agree
> > with your assessment.
> >
> >
> > In-person pdcs have a lot more depth to them than  on-line courses.  That
> > said, I believe there is still room for on-line courses.  But people
> should
> > sign on to them knowing what they are missing.  I wouldn't be surprised
> > that people who take on-line courses are good candidates to sign up for
> on
> > the ground pdcs later on.  So it is not either/or but both have their own
> > values.  An on-line course may be inferior in general but they are good
> to
> > serve the people who can only do the on-line course for whatever
> reason(s).
> >
> >
> > The movement should come up with more ways to assess the quality of
> > on-line courses being offered as well as in-the-flesh pdcs.  A
> > high-quality, on-line course can be better then some of the more inferior
> > residential or weekend courses.  Right now all we have is informal
> gossip.
> >
> >
> > It is great to hear how you have continued with your pdc work and
> reaching
> > so many people in Belize.  "Good on you", as they say in Australia. I am
> > pleased to have you on my list of students who are teaching pdcs.
> >
> >
> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> >
> >
> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Cc: Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>; Keith Johnson <
> keithdj@mindspring.com>;
> > Colin Doyle <colin@lostvalley.org>; Rich Blaha <rblaha@abrinc.com>;
> > Albert Bates <albert@thefarm.org>; Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>;
> > Deston Denniston <abundancepc@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
> >
> >
> > I have been busy and wanted to chime in on this, echoing some of what has
> > been said: I think, for me, that I feel an aspect of the in the flesh PDC
> > that would have to be missing is the fellowship of being in one place,
> the
> > community of group learning. I took my PDC in 1991, and it was
> > transformative, literally. My farm is the fruit of that. Part of what I
> > walked away with was imparted by interacting with other students during
> the
> > design phase, and during the presentation of the course material. There
> was
> > one emotional meltdown during the PDC, one bickering feud that flowered
> > into yelling (one of the two participants was me), early morning coffee,
> > late night conversations, and several romances that blossomed, grew and
> > dissipated, or became full fledged relationships. I met my ex-wife during
> > that PDC. So much of what I experienced was related to human beings and
> > interactions, site observation, walking, eating, sitting, talking. That
> was
> > a huge part of what
> >  I walked away with. T
> > he wisdom and teaching talent of Michael Pilarski, Rick Valley, Chuck
> > Marsh, Jose Caballero and Mark Cohen would be hard to put into an online
> > format.
> >
> > One of the things I have observed in the PDC I attended, which Michael
> was
> > the lead teacher of, and in the eight PDCs I have hosted and co-taught is
> > the amount of instant feedback available to students. Students frequently
> > have questions tied to an aspect of the curriculum that can be expanded
> on.
> > In the courses I have co-taught, Albert, for example, is fantastic at
> this,
> > so is Toby Hemenway. I have seen this many times with Albert, who may be
> > teaching something and one of the students will ask a question, related,
> > but tangential to the topic, and Albert steps back, answers the question,
> > ties it to other things, shows how it is in relation to the larger topic,
> > or a topic previously discussed, and moves forward. I love these
> downloads
> > because they are responsive and dynamic and informative. How can a static
> > format like an online course be like that? I don't think they can be.
> >
> > I attended Antioch College a long time ago. I loved some of my classes,
> > Harold Wrights "Cultural History of Japan", for example. I loved his
> > teaching. A few years ago, I took an online course in grant writing. It
> was
> > good, and there was some feedback and interplay between students through
> > the "chalboard.com" media. I got a 4.0, a sort of triumphant return to
> > academia after my meteoric Antioch College experience. I liked it. I
> found
> > it informative, especially since the subject was all about writing, about
> > how to prepare a statement of need that will make funders weep and reach
> > for pens and checkbooks, and subsequently lay down the ways you intend to
> > address the target issue, but I wonder how much I might have learned in
> an
> > actual classroom. It was nothing like watching John Ronsheim (sp) teach a
> > music class, animated, moving, flowing, changes of tone in speech, change
> > in facial expressions, humor, sarcasm, surprise, dismay, and, above all,
> a
> > palpable and
> >  genuine love of music.
> >   I didn't take his class, but merely sat in on one class, one day, and
> > walked away with at least an appreciation of what a Good Teacher can to
> > when presenting material they care about. In that one 90 minute class,
> > there were so many subtle and nuanced relationships to the subject matter
> > that, now, close to 30 years later, I remember it vividly. Can a day on
> the
> > internet give you that?
> >
> > Then there is the question of pedagogy to target audience. In the 8 PDCs
> I
> > have hosted, we have taught close to 70 Belizeans. Some were funded by
> > external agencies, most were scholarships that we provided with the
> > cooperation of the teachers. Some of the students  were mid-level people
> in
> > the Ministry of Agriculture, Belizeans who have been trained in schools,
> > have a high degree of written literacy. Some were part time extension
> > officers, full time farmers, farmers whose primary language is either
> > Kekchi or Mopan Maya, and who can read and write, but whose literacy is
> > profoundly visual/botanic. Most farmers are not well served by
> > chalkboard/classroom method of information transfer. Their literacy is
> not
> > "academic". Their strengths are visual, with a high degree of botanic
> > literacy. They walk through the farm and GET IT. They see what is
> working,
> > and what is not. They know most of the plants and hone in on plants they
> do
> > not know. Most of them have no
> >  access to computers or co
> > mputer literacy. That is an audience that an online PDC cannot reach. Yet
> > they are the people who can IMMEDIATELY apply the information they are
> > exposed to to their land.
> >
> > Can a PDC be presented in an online format? Not the PDC I took, with a
> lot
> > of hands on work, a host of teachers with deep knowledge bases, students
> in
> > comradery, fellowship, field visits to amazing farmers, and certainly not
> > the ones I co-teach, which are heavy on evidence, using the venue of my
> > farm as a way to present permaculture practices, decades in the making,
> > well developed, having been actively managed with permaculture in mind
> for
> > over 20 years, and field visits to some of those same amazing farmers.
> Can
> > the internet make a batch of biochar? Can the internet collect food to
> send
> > to an elderly feeding program? Can you walk in the shade of an
> agroforestry
> > system designed and maintained for the last 24 years on the internet? Can
> > the internet put hand in compost? Can the internet sit in the light of a
> > light bulb powered by photovoltaics (well, yes, if the system is solar
> > powered...)? Can the internet use an A frame level and dig a swale? Not
> > really.
> >  The internet is flat.
> >   The textures can be rendered, but always in two dimensions. There is no
> > smell, no taste, no changing sunlight, no early morning coffee, no late
> > night conversation, no legs touching legs on a bench, no squeak of chalk
> on
> > a chalk board. I would not consider them to be equal in any way. I am not
> > saying that an online PDC cannot impart a lot of information, it
> definitely
> > can, but the information will be flatter than a textured, dynamic and
> > flowing PDC in flesh and blood, with dirt under fingernails, groups of
> > people talking with passion, and cold coffee in 3/4 empty mugs.
> >
> > And $2200 for an internet course in permaculture? Sorry, but I do not see
> > that! There are so many great flesh and blood courses out there for about
> > half that, why would anyone take an online course for $2200?
> >
> > I don't see the need for a class like this.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________________
> > Christopher Nesbitt
> >
> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > BELIZE,
> > Central America
> >
> > Country code 501-630-4386
> >
> > www.mmrfbz.org
> > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 4, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Rhonda Baird wrote:
> >
> > > Bill Wilson at Midwest Permaculture offers a partial online experience.
> > > People do self-study for the first week's content and come together at
> a
> > > location to do a second week in person. I know that has been in place
> for
> > > some years.
> > >
> > > I have to say that I have been developing an interest in organizing an
> > > on-line course in combination with a shorter periods of in-person
> > support.
> > > I'm surprised at my own interest and the logic driving it, as I
> strongly
> > > prefer in-person, face-to-face experiences. I am particularly thinking
> of
> > > pairing with my state's technical schools as a good place to work. I
> > think
> > > one of the keys--and Andrew Millison seems to do this well--is to
> provide
> > > community online and personal mentoring and support for practical work
> on
> > > the ground where the student is located. While less perfect than a
> > > residential course, I do think this has its place as time goes on and
> > worth
> > > careful exploration.
> > >
> > > I have been part of an online community for 14 years that does its
> > > education and community-building online punctuated by optional weekend
> > > intensives. In fact, I run a portion of the online educational
> programs,
> > so
> > > I know there are a number of challenges and benefits. There are lots of
> > > options now--compared to 1998 when I got involved.
> > >
> > > walk in peace,
> > > Rhonda Baird
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> > > friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I would like to see a comparative review of all the on-line pc design
> > >> courses offered. Prices, etc. Dan Hemenway has offered them for years.
> > I
> > >> believe there are others in Australia ? (pre Geoff L). I have deep
> > respect
> > >> for Andrew Millison and Marisha Auerbach who are offering a new
> on-line
> > >> course.  Who are the others?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I would also like to hear some comments by people who have gone
> through
> > an
> > >> on-line pdc. They would be the best people to judge how well it works.
> > If
> > >> there is no one on this list serve who has done an on-line course that
> > is
> > >> not a good sign.  If there is no one who has taken an on-line course
> > that
> > >> would give it good marks that is not a good sign.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think on-line courses have their place, but just like residential or
> > >> weekend pdcs they are not all created equal.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> As Peter Bane opines, $2200 for Geoff Lawton's online pdc is not a
> good
> > >> deal.  Geoff L. says his course is limited in size?  How limited, I
> > would
> > >> like to know.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
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>
>
>
> --
> Andrew Millison
> (541) 752-9118
> www.beaverstatepermaculture.com
>
>
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-- 
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart