permaculture

[Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>]

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Steve Hart 
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:

> LL...I thought I did respond...maybe got lost in Lemuria...again here
>
> Titled "John Douglas' Problem...Solution ?
>
> Hi John....as an old campaigner of PC...I congratulate you on your
> successes in developing what you have in Panama. A close friend of mine has
> business there and invited me several times....perhaps if I make it to
> IPC11 in Cuba I may stop by. It seems to me that you have so much to offer
> the region and it also then seems so valuable for you to actually
> facilitate a very good PDC right at your doorstep. But, make sure you
> engage a very well qualified and experienced teacher. Once you have
> convened a PDC and participated fully then you will appreciate many more
> values of the larger dynamic of what Permaculture offers. Go hard...this is
> your next obvious journey....keep me posted...Steve Hart
>
> LL....have you created a PDC at your back door too ?...Steve
>

No, why should I? I created and run this list, am a market gardener and a
woodworker's and gardener's tool maker. I was a landscape contractor
and yes it would be a perfect logical step to move from landscape design to
permaculture design. I wish now that I had followed that path
and in the process developed a PDC (after taking one myself) and an online
course. While I was off going in the wrong direction Dan Hemenway
developed wonderful PC resources and courses. Just ask Bob Waldrop.

I will repeat what I said to anyone whether they offer a PDC or not:

Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
 tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied in
their PDC's are to be applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded.
That's my take on it
based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's.

There are many ways to bring permaculture to the world to people with
plenty of money or people will little means.
The substance of the course is what is important. Synergy created by a
group taking the course is also very important.

As Alan Chadwick said:

Allen Chadwick said, "We need to create the beauty and the quality  first.
The quantity will follow."


LL

>
> On 9 June 2013 11:26, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It seems to mre that if a PDC teacher has spent a lifetime learning
> > permaculture, building a PC knowledgebase,
> > collecting and organizing information archives consisting of his and
> others
> > writings, gleaning the best that is available
> > over decades of listening, reading and learning and that teacher infuses
> > his PDC with the distilled essence of his knowkedgebase
> > then you have in that PODC the best that person has to offer, in other
> > words his or her Magnum Opus. If his or her PDC is offered once a year
> > at a price of  $1000 per student and twenty students take the online
> > course, that is $20,000 per year income if that is his or her only source
> > of financial gain. Subtract, taxes, course overhead expenses and you have
> > pretty meager income.
> >
> > Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
> > tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
> > are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
> > world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied
> in
> > their PDC's are to be
> > applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded. That's my take on
> it
> > based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's. Anyone else have
> comments?
> > Steve Hart?
> >
> > LL
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 6:32 PM, john douglas <
> > > johnarthurdouglas99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>  I want to some day take a PDC course. Meanwhile,  I  bought some
> > >> Permaculture and related books. About 80 books that cost $200.00.
> > >>
> > >> Meanwhile, in the last 4 years i have given tours  in my Permaculture
> > >> farm, in Panama, to maybe 1500 people, talks to maybe 2500 more and
> have
> > >> had 200?? volunteers, various who have taken PDCs, and a few who have
> > had
> > >> their own Permaculture farms. we all learned.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > That's the way forward. You are doing great work, John.
> > >
> > >
> > >> A lot of lives have been changed here in various positive ways.
> > >>
> > >> yes, i want to take a PDC course on line or live some day.
> > >>
> > >> but to pay $1000.00 for an on line course, i find the idea offensive
> and
> > >> contrary to Permaculture principles.
> > >> IT AINT NECESSARY AT ALL.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > It depends on what is being offered. Correspondence courses can be very
> > > valuable whether online or paper or a combination..
> > > If the online PDC provides to subscribers literature for you to
> download
> > > and print out, videos, galleries of photographs,
> > > drawings and plans  organized collection of documents, plus do all the
> > > advertisinf and promotion, subscription and financial management
> > > and all legal liabilities associated, that can be well worth $1000,
> > > easily. The devil is in the details in this case. If the teacher pays
> > > himself $25 per hour to
> > > create, process, put online all the above resources listed plus pay for
> > > server space, ISP fee, shopping cart, and ongoing management of the
> > > curriculum
> > > during the course, correspond with subscribers, answer questions, give
> > > advice and guidance. For a good, robust course that lasts over a period
> > of
> > > six to eight weeks
> > > $1000 could be considered a bargain. Of course there are plenty of
> > > scambags that give online PDC's a bad name but those types can be
> > > completely ignored.
> > >
> > > LL
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> john   Don Perezoso = The Lazy Farmer ....THE SECRET IS IN THE GARBAGE
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> WEBSITE    English    http://www.organicpanamapermaculture.com/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> SITIO de WEB   Español
> > http://organicopanamapermacultura.yolasite.com/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Spanish Videos
> > >> VIDEO desde Pecha Kucha
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmmOKk3gH8
> > >>
> > >>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfQkPdiZWRU
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCajj2rfEY
> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO39F9beTNQ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>  From: "permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org" <
> > >> permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:00 AM
> > >> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 125, Issue 15
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > >>     permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > >>
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> > >>
> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >>    1. Re: New online Certificate course (Andrew Millison)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:32:44 -0700
> > >> From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
> > >> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Cc: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>,    Deston Denniston
> > >>     <abundancepc@gmail.com>, Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>,
>  Albert
> > >> Bates
> > >>     <albert@thefarm.org>, Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >>     <
> CAKo1s6EWVhHYeoQQTWbLc3W5MjqcoFByTZhNp1VZda_v0GmV-A@mail.gmail.com
> > >
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >> As a follow up to this conversation, I wrote an article about online
> > >> Permaculture education, for anyone who wants to explore the subject
> more
> > >> deeply. It's a bit long to paste in an e-mail, so here's the link:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.beaverstatepermaculture.com/profiles/blogs/e-pdc-the-case-for-online-permaculture-education
> > >>
> > >> Enjoy the day!
> > >>
> > >> Andrew
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> > >> friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hello Christopher,
> > >> >
> > >> > Thank you for your feedback on the value of on-line pdcs.  I thought
> > it
> > >> > was the most in-depth comparison I have seen thus far and certainly
> > >> agree
> > >> > with your assessment.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > In-person pdcs have a lot more depth to them than  on-line courses.
> > >> That
> > >> > said, I believe there is still room for on-line courses.  But people
> > >> should
> > >> > sign on to them knowing what they are missing.  I wouldn't be
> > surprised
> > >> > that people who take on-line courses are good candidates to sign up
> > for
> > >> on
> > >> > the ground pdcs later on.  So it is not either/or but both have
> their
> > >> own
> > >> > values.  An on-line course may be inferior in general but they are
> > good
> > >> to
> > >> > serve the people who can only do the on-line course for whatever
> > >> reason(s).
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > The movement should come up with more ways to assess the quality of
> > >> > on-line courses being offered as well as in-the-flesh pdcs.  A
> > >> > high-quality, on-line course can be better then some of the more
> > >> inferior
> > >> > residential or weekend courses.  Right now all we have is informal
> > >> gossip.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > It is great to hear how you have continued with your pdc work and
> > >> reaching
> > >> > so many people in Belize.  "Good on you", as they say in Australia.
> I
> > am
> > >> > pleased to have you on my list of students who are teaching pdcs.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > >> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> >  From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> > Cc: Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>; Keith Johnson <
> > >> keithdj@mindspring.com>;
> > >> > Colin Doyle <colin@lostvalley.org>; Rich Blaha <rblaha@abrinc.com>;
> > >> > Albert Bates <albert@thefarm.org>; Peter Bane <
> pcactivist@comcast.net
> > >;
> > >> > Deston Denniston <abundancepc@gmail.com>
> > >> > Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I have been busy and wanted to chime in on this, echoing some of
> what
> > >> has
> > >> > been said: I think, for me, that I feel an aspect of the in the
> flesh
> > >> PDC
> > >> > that would have to be missing is the fellowship of being in one
> place,
> > >> the
> > >> > community of group learning. I took my PDC in 1991, and it was
> > >> > transformative, literally. My farm is the fruit of that. Part of
> what
> > I
> > >> > walked away with was imparted by interacting with other students
> > during
> > >> the
> > >> > design phase, and during the presentation of the course material.
> > There
> > >> was
> > >> > one emotional meltdown during the PDC, one bickering feud that
> > flowered
> > >> > into yelling (one of the two participants was me), early morning
> > coffee,
> > >> > late night conversations, and several romances that blossomed, grew
> > and
> > >> > dissipated, or became full fledged relationships. I met my ex-wife
> > >> during
> > >> > that PDC. So much of what I experienced was related to human beings
> > and
> > >> > interactions, site observation, walking, eating, sitting, talking.
> > That
> > >> was
> > >> > a huge part of what
> > >> >  I walked away with. T
> > >> > he wisdom and teaching talent of Michael Pilarski, Rick Valley,
> Chuck
> > >> > Marsh, Jose Caballero and Mark Cohen would be hard to put into an
> > online
> > >> > format.
> > >> >
> > >> > One of the things I have observed in the PDC I attended, which
> Michael
> > >> was
> > >> > the lead teacher of, and in the eight PDCs I have hosted and
> co-taught
> > >> is
> > >> > the amount of instant feedback available to students. Students
> > >> frequently
> > >> > have questions tied to an aspect of the curriculum that can be
> > expanded
> > >> on.
> > >> > In the courses I have co-taught, Albert, for example, is fantastic
> at
> > >> this,
> > >> > so is Toby Hemenway. I have seen this many times with Albert, who
> may
> > be
> > >> > teaching something and one of the students will ask a question,
> > related,
> > >> > but tangential to the topic, and Albert steps back, answers the
> > >> question,
> > >> > ties it to other things, shows how it is in relation to the larger
> > >> topic,
> > >> > or a topic previously discussed, and moves forward. I love these
> > >> downloads
> > >> > because they are responsive and dynamic and informative. How can a
> > >> static
> > >> > format like an online course be like that? I don't think they can
> be.
> > >> >
> > >> > I attended Antioch College a long time ago. I loved some of my
> > classes,
> > >> > Harold Wrights "Cultural History of Japan", for example. I loved his
> > >> > teaching. A few years ago, I took an online course in grant writing.
> > It
> > >> was
> > >> > good, and there was some feedback and interplay between students
> > through
> > >> > the "chalboard.com" media. I got a 4.0, a sort of triumphant return
> > to
> > >> > academia after my meteoric Antioch College experience. I liked it. I
> > >> found
> > >> > it informative, especially since the subject was all about writing,
> > >> about
> > >> > how to prepare a statement of need that will make funders weep and
> > reach
> > >> > for pens and checkbooks, and subsequently lay down the ways you
> intend
> > >> to
> > >> > address the target issue, but I wonder how much I might have learned
> > in
> > >> an
> > >> > actual classroom. It was nothing like watching John Ronsheim (sp)
> > teach
> > >> a
> > >> > music class, animated, moving, flowing, changes of tone in speech,
> > >> change
> > >> > in facial expressions, humor, sarcasm, surprise, dismay, and, above
> > >> all, a
> > >> > palpable and
> > >> >  genuine love of music.
> > >> >   I didn't take his class, but merely sat in on one class, one day,
> > and
> > >> > walked away with at least an appreciation of what a Good Teacher can
> > to
> > >> > when presenting material they care about. In that one 90 minute
> class,
> > >> > there were so many subtle and nuanced relationships to the subject
> > >> matter
> > >> > that, now, close to 30 years later, I remember it vividly. Can a day
> > on
> > >> the
> > >> > internet give you that?
> > >> >
> > >> > Then there is the question of pedagogy to target audience. In the 8
> > >> PDCs I
> > >> > have hosted, we have taught close to 70 Belizeans. Some were funded
> by
> > >> > external agencies, most were scholarships that we provided with the
> > >> > cooperation of the teachers. Some of the students  were mid-level
> > >> people in
> > >> > the Ministry of Agriculture, Belizeans who have been trained in
> > schools,
> > >> > have a high degree of written literacy. Some were part time
> extension
> > >> > officers, full time farmers, farmers whose primary language is
> either
> > >> > Kekchi or Mopan Maya, and who can read and write, but whose literacy
> > is
> > >> > profoundly visual/botanic. Most farmers are not well served by
> > >> > chalkboard/classroom method of information transfer. Their literacy
> is
> > >> not
> > >> > "academic". Their strengths are visual, with a high degree of
> botanic
> > >> > literacy. They walk through the farm and GET IT. They see what is
> > >> working,
> > >> > and what is not. They know most of the plants and hone in on plants
> > >> they do
> > >> > not know. Most of them have no
> > >> >  access to computers or co
> > >> > mputer literacy. That is an audience that an online PDC cannot
> reach.
> > >> Yet
> > >> > they are the people who can IMMEDIATELY apply the information they
> are
> > >> > exposed to to their land.
> > >> >
> > >> > Can a PDC be presented in an online format? Not the PDC I took,
> with a
> > >> lot
> > >> > of hands on work, a host of teachers with deep knowledge bases,
> > >> students in
> > >> > comradery, fellowship, field visits to amazing farmers, and
> certainly
> > >> not
> > >> > the ones I co-teach, which are heavy on evidence, using the venue of
> > my
> > >> > farm as a way to present permaculture practices, decades in the
> > making,
> > >> > well developed, having been actively managed with permaculture in
> mind
> > >> for
> > >> > over 20 years, and field visits to some of those same amazing
> farmers.
> > >> Can
> > >> > the internet make a batch of biochar? Can the internet collect food
> to
> > >> send
> > >> > to an elderly feeding program? Can you walk in the shade of an
> > >> agroforestry
> > >> > system designed and maintained for the last 24 years on the
> internet?
> > >> Can
> > >> > the internet put hand in compost? Can the internet sit in the light
> > of a
> > >> > light bulb powered by photovoltaics (well, yes, if the system is
> solar
> > >> > powered...)? Can the internet use an A frame level and dig a swale?
> > Not
> > >> > really.
> > >> >  The internet is flat.
> > >> >   The textures can be rendered, but always in two dimensions. There
> is
> > >> no
> > >> > smell, no taste, no changing sunlight, no early morning coffee, no
> > late
> > >> > night conversation, no legs touching legs on a bench, no squeak of
> > >> chalk on
> > >> > a chalk board. I would not consider them to be equal in any way. I
> am
> > >> not
> > >> > saying that an online PDC cannot impart a lot of information, it
> > >> definitely
> > >> > can, but the information will be flatter than a textured, dynamic
> and
> > >> > flowing PDC in flesh and blood, with dirt under fingernails, groups
> of
> > >> > people talking with passion, and cold coffee in 3/4 empty mugs.
> > >> >
> > >> > And $2200 for an internet course in permaculture? Sorry, but I do
> not
> > >> see
> > >> > that! There are so many great flesh and blood courses out there for
> > >> about
> > >> > half that, why would anyone take an online course for $2200?
> > >> >
> > >> > I don't see the need for a class like this.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > _____________________________
> > >> > Christopher Nesbitt
> > >> >
> > >> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > >> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > >> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > >> > BELIZE,
> > >> > Central America
> > >> >
> > >> > Country code 501-630-4386
> > >> >
> > >> > www.mmrfbz.org
> > >> > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On May 4, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Rhonda Baird wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Bill Wilson at Midwest Permaculture offers a partial online
> > >> experience.
> > >> > > People do self-study for the first week's content and come
> together
> > >> at a
> > >> > > location to do a second week in person. I know that has been in
> > place
> > >> for
> > >> > > some years.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I have to say that I have been developing an interest in
> organizing
> > an
> > >> > > on-line course in combination with a shorter periods of in-person
> > >> > support.
> > >> > > I'm surprised at my own interest and the logic driving it, as I
> > >> strongly
> > >> > > prefer in-person, face-to-face experiences. I am particularly
> > >> thinking of
> > >> > > pairing with my state's technical schools as a good place to
> work. I
> > >> > think
> > >> > > one of the keys--and Andrew Millison seems to do this well--is to
> > >> provide
> > >> > > community online and personal mentoring and support for practical
> > >> work on
> > >> > > the ground where the student is located. While less perfect than a
> > >> > > residential course, I do think this has its place as time goes on
> > and
> > >> > worth
> > >> > > careful exploration.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I have been part of an online community for 14 years that does its
> > >> > > education and community-building online punctuated by optional
> > weekend
> > >> > > intensives. In fact, I run a portion of the online educational
> > >> programs,
> > >> > so
> > >> > > I know there are a number of challenges and benefits. There are
> lots
> > >> of
> > >> > > options now--compared to 1998 when I got involved.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > walk in peace,
> > >> > > Rhonda Baird
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> > >> > > friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> I would like to see a comparative review of all the on-line pc
> > design
> > >> > >> courses offered. Prices, etc. Dan Hemenway has offered them for
> > >> years.
> > >> > I
> > >> > >> believe there are others in Australia ? (pre Geoff L). I have
> deep
> > >> > respect
> > >> > >> for Andrew Millison and Marisha Auerbach who are offering a new
> > >> on-line
> > >> > >> course.  Who are the others?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I would also like to hear some comments by people who have gone
> > >> through
> > >> > an
> > >> > >> on-line pdc. They would be the best people to judge how well it
> > >> works.
> > >> > If
> > >> > >> there is no one on this list serve who has done an on-line course
> > >> that
> > >> > is
> > >> > >> not a good sign.  If there is no one who has taken an on-line
> > course
> > >> > that
> > >> > >> would give it good marks that is not a good sign.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I think on-line courses have their place, but just like
> residential
> > >> or
> > >> > >> weekend pdcs they are not all created equal.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> As Peter Bane opines, $2200 for Geoff Lawton's online pdc is not
> a
> > >> good
> > >> > >> deal.  Geoff L. says his course is limited in size?  How
> limited, I
> > >> > would
> > >> > >> like to know.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> > >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> > >>
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > >> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > >> > Google message archive search:
> > >> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Millison
> > >> (541) 752-9118
> > >> www.beaverstatepermaculture.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
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> > >> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > >> Google message archive search:
> > >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >>
> > >> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 125, Issue 15
> > >> *********************************************
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > >> Google message archive search:
> > >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
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> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>