permaculture

[Mary Farris <maryfarris11@gmail.com>]

unsubscribe me please


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:34 AM, 
<permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>wrote:

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>    1. Re: Making electricity from roof runoff? (DGilsen@aol.com)
>    2. Re: Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In 2011 the
>       dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food. (tanya)
>    3. Re: Making electricity from roof runoff? (John D'hondt)
>    4. lost crops of africa (Daniel Jager)
>    5. Palestine | Christina Feldt (Lawrence London)
>    6. Re: lost crops of africa & Incas (Michael Pilarski)
>    7. Re: Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In       2011 the
>       dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
>       (Michael Pilarski)
>    8. Re: Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In 2011 the
>       dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food. (tanya)
>    9. Re: Cuba (Michael Pilarski)
>   10. Re: Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In 2011 the
>       dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
>       (dwoodard@becon.org)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: DGilsen@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making electricity from roof runoff?
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <632a6.240669a4.3ec7e071@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Unless it rains all the time or you have a huge catchments container   you
> couldn't have a continues  wheel running.  You would have to have  a lot of
> force to push a grinding wheel  to power a washing machine or some  other
> thing.
>
>
> In a message dated 5/13/2013 3:38:49 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> dhondt@eircom.net writes:
>
>
> Not  to make electricity! We have 20 meter head and two gallons per second
> and  we produce 2 KW.
> Might turn a butter churn.
> John
>
> >I was  wondering if anyone's tried using their roof runoff to power a
> water
> >  wheel. I'm looking at a move to the Pacific northwest, and was  thinking
> > about trying to divert all the water from the roof into one
>  pipe/channel,
> > past a water wheel, and into some sort of reservoir.  Thoughts?
> >
> > you
> >  _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing  list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > Avant Geared   http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:00:41 -0700
> From: tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
>         | In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's
>         food.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAA-ju_c1eX3F5paMuP4r3CCp02LYwOs=
> Rzu+VVdT+kYrMvxiZQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> But look at the U.S. history of victory gardens! (One source is the book
> The City Bountiful, which covers the history of community gardens in the
> U.S.) During WW I and II, people were encouraged to aid the war effort
> (with all kinds of entertaining slogans), and they grew a huge percentage
> of the produce for a few years -- iirc, at peak it was something like 40%
> of fresh vegs grown in the U.S. It can happen again, but it will take
> another full-out concerted effort. And I think community gardens are a
> great place to start.
>
> Speaking as a community gardener with plots in 3 different gardens, I never
> have enough space to grow everything I want to grow.
>
> On the down side, food growing knowledge is probably not as prevalent now
> as it was 70 or 100 years ago. And the organic growers, judging from
> participants in some online gardening forums, are perhaps overly dependent
> on products. (For instance, the best way to find organic gardening products
> anywhere is to look for the local hydroponics store. They originally
> supported growers of a famous indoor cash crop, but organic veg growers
> also discovered them. And these small stores carry a fantastic array of
> products!)
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> > friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Lawrence,
> > >
> > > You hypothecized
> >
> >
> > Looks like this old PC forum will earn its keep one way or another.
> Thanks
> > for the feedback, Michael.
> >
> > I did not write that article I forwarded to the list.
> >
> >
> > > that if the Dacha gardeners grew 41% of Russia's food, that 49% is
> grown
> > > by Russia's state agriculture.  What you missed in this equation is
> that
> > > Russia is one of the world's largest food importing countries.  Russia
> > > imports a lot of its food.  This means that it's agricultural sector
> > isn't
> > > doing very good.
> > >
> >
> > And there is no excuse for that.
> >
> > Russia has some of the best farmland in the world.
> > Russia HAD some of the best farmers in the world and they knew how to
> work
> > that prime farmland. Soviet Stalinism changed the face of traditional
> > Russian farming.
> > They converted all farming operations to collective farms generating food
> > to ship to the party elite well away from where that food was grown,
> > leaving farmers, their families and relatives,
> > communities and villlages living and working in a state of near poverty
> or
> > thereabouts, otherwise not fairly compensated for their labors. The
> Russian
> > farmers of old, called Kulaks (as far as I know) were the experts
> carrying
> > forward the best traditions of Russian agriculture. The Kulaks were not
> > happy with the changeover. Their displeasure did not go unnoticed in the
> > ceners of political control so they were either exiled to Siberia or
> > exterminated. Russia was left with no new generation who know how to work
> > those magnificent lands (Black Earth Region stretching from Ukraine to
> > Siberia). That's what you have now so no new national agricultural
> > infrastructure serving the Russian people at large. Just oligarchs and
> > their schemes one of which is to sell or lease some of that Black Earth
> > region.  But you have the Dacha Gardeners and community and village
> gardens
> > as well most probably with larger farms distributing food throughout
> their
> > regions. You will like this: I met a Krishna follower in Whole Foods one
> > evening years ago and struck up a conversation asking him about organic
> > agriculture there. He replied that after the Soviets left their
> traditional
> > farming resumed without missing a beat. Most of their farms were small
> > family units with some medium large with all food sold locally or
> > distributed within the immediate region if they were one of the few
> larger
> > commercial operations. It was an assumed fact that the food sold at
> markets
> > was organically grown. If a grower tried to sell food
> > produced using methods involving pesticides, it became known rapidly and
> > that vendor was shut out of the marketplace.
> >
> > >
> > > This should be a fact that should sober up the USA and other western
> > > countries who rely on agribusiness agriculture to feed people.
> > > Agribusiness and agriculture suffer mightily when empires crash.
> >
> >
> > People in the US need to wake up to the fact that they need clean
> > nutritious food in order to live a normal healthy life and that food
> needs
> > to be grown using natural methods and materials and produced within a
> > reasonable proximity to consumers.
> >
> >
> > > The US does not have a counterpart to Russia's dacha food production.
>  In
> > > case of a collapse, the US will be in a tough spot for food.
> > >
> >
> > They can begin now to create one. It would be really fine if we had
> Russian
> > dacha gardeners and would be American cottage gardeners here together in
> > this mailing list.
> > What would it take to get that ball rolling? a special permaculture or
> PDC
> > event or events focusing on that, for starters.
> >
> > LL
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >  From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 6:49 PM
> > > Subject: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In
> > > 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
> > > http://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm
> > > In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
> > >
> > >
> > > 40% of Russia's Food is from Dacha Gardens
> > >
> > > In 2011, 51% of Russia's food was grown either by dacha communities
> > (40%),
> > > like those pictured left in Sisto-Palkino, or peasant farmers (11%)
> > leaving
> > > the rest (49%) of production to the large agricultural enterprises. But
> > > when you dig down into the earthy data from the Russian Statistics
> > > Service<
> > >
> >
> http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosstat_main/rosstat/en/figures/agriculture/
> > > >you
> > > discover some impressive details. Again in 2011, dacha gardens
> > > produced
> > > over 80% of the countries fruit and berries, over 66% of the
> vegetables,
> > > almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of the nations milk, much of
> it
> > > consumed raw.
> > >
> > > While many European governments make living on a small-holding very
> > > difficult, in Russia the opposite is the case. In the UK one
> > > councillor<
> > > http://www.lowimpact.org/blog/2012/Sep/smallholding_is_like_prison.htm
> > >'s
> > > opinion regarding living of the land was, "*Nobody would subject
> > themselves
> > > to that way of life. You might as well be in prison*"; tell that to a
> > > nation of gardeners living off the land.
> > >
> > >
> > > During the communist period school children were obliged to visit their
> > > local farms to get hands-on experience harvesting food (below left) at
> a
> > > time when about 90% of the nation's food came from dacha gardens.
> During
> > > the same period every child would be expected to play their part in
> > growing
> > > the family's food from their small patch of Russia.
> > >
> > > While the percentage of food grown by Russia's dacha has fallen since
> > then
> > > it is still a massive contribution to the nation's food and forms an
> > > important part of their rural heritage. Take a walk through the
> street's
> > of
> > > Russia's cities, like St. Petersburg, and you will find people selling
> > > herbs, fruit, berries and vegetables from their dacha gardens. Unlike
> > many
> > > cities in Europe and the USA, Russian cities are peppered with small
> > corner
> > > shops (below right) selling locally grown food in all shapes, colours
> and
> > > sizes still carrying their native Russian soil.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
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> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need. -- Cicero
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 00:19:36 +0100
> From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Making electricity from roof runoff?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4952B011418C42558729583BE05A1040@Targadc5fefe82d>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=original
>
>
> I agree completely but it is still much more efficient to use that trickle
> of water directly in a mechanical way than to make electricity with it.
> john
>
>
> > Unless it rains all the time or you have a huge catchments container
> you
> > couldn't have a continues  wheel running.  You would have to have  a lot
> > of
> > force to push a grinding wheel  to power a washing machine or some  other
> > thing.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/13/2013 3:38:49 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> > dhondt@eircom.net writes:
> >
> >
> > Not  to make electricity! We have 20 meter head and two gallons per
> second
> > and  we produce 2 KW.
> > Might turn a butter churn.
> > John
> >
> >>I was  wondering if anyone's tried using their roof runoff to power a
> >>water
> >>  wheel. I'm looking at a move to the Pacific northwest, and was
>  thinking
> >> about trying to divert all the water from the roof into one
> >> pipe/channel,
> >> past a water wheel, and into some sort of reservoir.  Thoughts?
> >>
> >> you
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing  list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user  config|list info|make a donation toward list
> >> maintenance:
> >>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message  archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>  Google message archive search:
> >> site:  lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture  Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> Avant Geared   http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture  mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user  config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> > Google  message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture  [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant  Geared   http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 18:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] lost crops of africa
> To: "permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <1368839111.25087.YahooMailNeo@web160906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I found these e-books online at the National Academic Press webpage: The
> Lost crops of Africa. I. Grains, II. Vegetables, III. Fruits.
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=2305
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11763
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11879
>
>
> Surely a interesting resource for those who are interested in tropical
> wild food conservation, diversification or just plain cultivation. I am
> sure there are some pretty drought hardy species among those listed.
>
> You can log-on as guest and download the pdf's for free if you live in a
> developing nation (not sure how they check this: perhaps by IP address,
> perhaps not).
>
> Daniel
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 00:16:42 -0400
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Palestine | Christina Feldt
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CA+j2Q+Dmcz8Bc09rpEhxmy8fA2wXm78dTAGjrNVXS7KBNxCsPA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> http://www.christinafeldt.com/category/palestine/
> Category Archives: Palestine
>  26/08/2010
> ?My land is for everybody, as long as people come in peace? (Abed, Al
> Wallaja, West Bank).<
> http://www.christinafeldt.com/my-land-is-for-everybody-as-long-as-people-come-in-peace-abed-al-wallaja-west-bank/
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:06:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] lost crops of africa & Incas
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <1368853567.36660.YahooMailClassic@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I echo that these are fantastic resources for the plant explorer.? A
> somewhat companion volume is the book "Lost Crops of the Incas". 1989. Noel
> D. Vietmeyer, et al. Also by the National Academy Press.
>
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/17/13, Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] lost crops of africa
> To: "permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 6:05 PM
>
> I found these e-books online at the National Academic Press webpage: The
> Lost crops of Africa. I. Grains, II. Vegetables, III. Fruits.
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=2305
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11763
>
> http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11879
>
>
> Surely a interesting resource for those who are interested in tropical
> wild food conservation, diversification or just plain cultivation. I am
> sure there are some pretty drought hardy species among those listed.
>
> You can log-on as guest and download the pdf's for free if you live in a
> developing nation (not sure how they check this: perhaps by IP address,
> perhaps not).
>
> Daniel
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
>         | In    2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the
> nation's
>         food.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <1368854496.15777.YahooMailClassic@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Lawrence,?
>
> thank you for the bit of Russian food production history. And thank you
> Tanya for pointing out the victory Gardens as our historical example.
>
> I'd like to respond briefly to Lawrence's idea of bringing Russian
> > dacha gardeners and would be American cottage gardeners together
> > What would it take to get that ball rolling? a special permaculture or
> PDC
> > event or events focusing on that, for starters.
>
> For many years I have hypothecized on the idea of bringing peasant farmers
> from around the world to teach US people how to grow food.? Much of
> permaculture is drawn from peasant cultures around the world.? Low
> external-input, labor intensive, smart,
>
> Of course they can't afford to come here, unless we paid for it on our
> end.? Us Westerners go around the world to study traditional cultures but
> seldom pay to bring them here.?
>
> But what has been done along these lines?? Are there exchange programs?
> Where is traditional agriculture being taught to traveling Westerners??
> Where are the best youtubes which chronicle traditional food production
> systems?? How can we learn with a lighter footprint?
>
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/17/13, tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation |
> In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 4:00 PM
>
> But look at the U.S. history of victory gardens! (One source is the book
> The City Bountiful, which covers the history of community gardens in the
> U.S.) During WW I and II, people were encouraged to aid the war effort
> (with all kinds of entertaining slogans), and they grew a huge percentage
> of the produce for a few years -- iirc, at peak it was something like 40%
> of fresh vegs grown in the U.S. It can happen again, but it will take
> another full-out concerted effort. And I think community gardens are a
> great place to start.
>
> Speaking as a community gardener with plots in 3 different gardens, I never
> have enough space to grow everything I want to grow.
>
> On the down side, food growing knowledge is probably not as prevalent now
> as it was 70 or 100 years ago. And the organic growers, judging from
> participants in some online gardening forums, are perhaps overly dependent
> on products. (For instance, the best way to find organic gardening products
> anywhere is to look for the local hydroponics store. They originally
> supported growers of a famous indoor cash crop, but organic veg growers
> also discovered them. And these small stores carry a fantastic array of
> products!)
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
> > friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Lawrence,
> > >
> > > You hypothecized
> >
> >
> > Looks like this old PC forum will earn its keep one way or another.
> Thanks
> > for the feedback, Michael.
> >
> > I did not write that article I forwarded to the list.
> >
> >
> > > that if the Dacha gardeners grew 41% of Russia's food, that 49% is
> grown
> > > by Russia's state agriculture.? What you missed in this equation is
> that
> > > Russia is one of the world's largest food importing countries.? Russia
> > > imports a lot of its food.? This means that it's agricultural sector
> > isn't
> > > doing very good.
> > >
> >
> > And there is no excuse for that.
> >
> > Russia has some of the best farmland in the world.
> > Russia HAD some of the best farmers in the world and they knew how to
> work
> > that prime farmland. Soviet Stalinism changed the face of traditional
> > Russian farming.
> > They converted all farming operations to collective farms generating food
> > to ship to the party elite well away from where that food was grown,
> > leaving farmers, their families and relatives,
> > communities and villlages living and working in a state of near poverty
> or
> > thereabouts, otherwise not fairly compensated for their labors. The
> Russian
> > farmers of old, called Kulaks (as far as I know) were the experts
> carrying
> > forward the best traditions of Russian agriculture. The Kulaks were not
> > happy with the changeover. Their displeasure did not go unnoticed in the
> > ceners of political control so they were either exiled to Siberia or
> > exterminated. Russia was left with no new generation who know how to work
> > those magnificent lands (Black Earth Region stretching from Ukraine to
> > Siberia). That's what you have now so no new national agricultural
> > infrastructure serving the Russian people at large. Just oligarchs and
> > their schemes one of which is to sell or lease some of that Black Earth
> > region.? But you have the Dacha Gardeners and community and village
> gardens
> > as well most probably with larger farms distributing food throughout
> their
> > regions. You will like this: I met a Krishna follower in Whole Foods one
> > evening years ago and struck up a conversation asking him about organic
> > agriculture there. He replied that after the Soviets left their
> traditional
> > farming resumed without missing a beat. Most of their farms were small
> > family units with some medium large with all food sold locally or
> > distributed within the immediate region if they were one of the few
> larger
> > commercial operations. It was an assumed fact that the food sold at
> markets
> > was organically grown. If a grower tried to sell food
> > produced using methods involving pesticides, it became known rapidly and
> > that vendor was shut out of the marketplace.
> >
> > >
> > > This should be a fact that should sober up the USA and other western
> > > countries who rely on agribusiness agriculture to feed people.
> > > Agribusiness and agriculture suffer mightily when empires crash.
> >
> >
> > People in the US need to wake up to the fact that they need clean
> > nutritious food in order to live a normal healthy life and that food
> needs
> > to be grown using natural methods and materials and produced within a
> > reasonable proximity to consumers.
> >
> >
> > > The US does not have a counterpart to Russia's dacha food production.?
> In
> > > case of a collapse, the US will be in a tough spot for food.
> > >
> >
> > They can begin now to create one. It would be really fine if we had
> Russian
> > dacha gardeners and would be American cottage gardeners here together in
> > this mailing list.
> > What would it take to get that ball rolling? a special permaculture or
> PDC
> > event or events focusing on that, for starters.
> >
> > LL
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >? From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 6:49 PM
> > > Subject: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation | In
> > > 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
> > > http://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm
> > > In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.
> > >
> > >
> > > 40% of Russia's Food is from Dacha Gardens
> > >
> > > In 2011, 51% of Russia's food was grown either by dacha communities
> > (40%),
> > > like those pictured left in Sisto-Palkino, or peasant farmers (11%)
> > leaving
> > > the rest (49%) of production to the large agricultural enterprises. But
> > > when you dig down into the earthy data from the Russian Statistics
> > > Service<
> > >
> >
> http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosstat_main/rosstat/en/figures/agriculture/
> > > >you
> > > discover some impressive details. Again in 2011, dacha gardens
> > > produced
> > > over 80% of the countries fruit and berries, over 66% of the
> vegetables,
> > > almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of the nations milk, much of
> it
> > > consumed raw.
> > >
> > > While many European governments make living on a small-holding very
> > > difficult, in Russia the opposite is the case. In the UK one
> > > councillor<
> > > http://www.lowimpact.org/blog/2012/Sep/smallholding_is_like_prison.htm
> > >'s
> > > opinion regarding living of the land was, "*Nobody would subject
> > themselves
> > > to that way of life. You might as well be in prison*"; tell that to a
> > > nation of gardeners living off the land.
> > >
> > >
> > > During the communist period school children were obliged to visit their
> > > local farms to get hands-on experience harvesting food (below left) at
> a
> > > time when about 90% of the nation's food came from dacha gardens.
> During
> > > the same period every child would be expected to play their part in
> > growing
> > > the family's food from their small patch of Russia.
> > >
> > > While the percentage of food grown by Russia's dacha has fallen since
> > then
> > > it is still a massive contribution to the nation's food and forms an
> > > important part of their rural heritage. Take a walk through the
> street's
> > of
> > > Russia's cities, like St. Petersburg, and you will find people selling
> > > herbs, fruit, berries and vegetables from their dacha gardens. Unlike
> > many
> > > cities in Europe and the USA, Russian cities are peppered with small
> > corner
> > > shops (below right) selling locally grown food in all shapes, colours
> and
> > > sizes still carrying their native Russian soil.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > > maintenance:
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> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
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> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need. -- Cicero
> _______________________________________________
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> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:39:09 -0700
> From: tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
>         | In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's
>         food.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAA-ju_dKrA_VoZMTF0euzTR6JVukKKqwa1SeDhkuwCnbKn+R6g@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> There's the example of Cuba, which after the fall of the Soviet Union was
> forced to create an organic, sustainable urban agricultural system.
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Michael Pilarski <
> friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > ?...
> > For many years I have hypothecized on the idea of bringing peasant
> farmers
> > from around the world to teach US people how to grow food.  Much of
> > permaculture is drawn from peasant cultures around the world.  Low
> > external-input, labor intensive, smart,
> > ?...
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Cuba
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <1368856638.34742.YahooMailClassic@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Cuba is one of our best post-collapse examples.?
>
> Did you know that permaculture was instrumental in Cuba surviving their
> "special period"? and developing their urban farming methods?
>
> It was primarily a crew of permaculturists from Melbourne, Australia
> working for PGAN. A NGO. I was visiting Melbourne in that time period and
> they told me all about it.?
>
> It is great that the 2013 International Permaculture Convergence is being
> held in Cuba.?
>
> Here is a url about it and how US people can attend.
>
>
> http://www.globalexchange.org/tours/11th-international-permaculture-convergence-and-research-tour
>
> I hope someone posts a good review on this list serve after it happens.
>
> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/17/13, tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: tanya <tanyagarden@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation |
> In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's
>  food.
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 10:39 PM
>
> There's the example of Cuba, which after the fall of the Soviet Union was
> forced to create an organic, sustainable urban agricultural system.
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Michael Pilarski <
> friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > ?...
> > For many years I have hypothecized on the idea of bringing peasant
> farmers
> > from around the world to teach US people how to grow food.? Much of
> > permaculture is drawn from peasant cultures around the world.? Low
> > external-input, labor intensive, smart,
> > ?...
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:? https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 03:34:05 -0400
> From: <dwoodard@becon.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Dacha gardeners feeding the Russian nation
>         | In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's
>         food.
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <f500a59decb84acf51618691bb2b9b71@becon.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>  Lawrence, the "kulaks" of Tsarist times in Russia were a small minority
>  of relatively rich peasant farmers. The word means "fist." Some were
>  into moneylending, partly it seems due to the difficulty of acquiring
>  land when most of it was held by repartitional communes or nobles.
>
>  Much of the pejorative use of the word in Soviet times was due to the
>  attempt of the Bolsheviks to foster a class war in the countryside,
>  something which the peasants did not take to naturally. Actually, kulaks
>  seem to have been accepted as leaders in the countryside. (See "Stalin's
>  Peasants..." by Sheila Fitzpatrick)
>
>  The economist Alexander Chayanov suggested that the prosperity of the
>  peasant household was often cyclic; households with many older
>  productive children would be relatively rich; old couples living alone
>  or young couples with small children would be relatively poor.
>
>  Russian farming in Tsarist times was much less productive than in
>  Western Europe, and this continues today. Some statistics in
>  "The End of Peasantry? The Disintegration of Rural Russia"
>  by Grigory Ioffe, Tatyana Nefedova, and Ilya Zaslavsky
>  University of Pittsburgh Press, 2006:
>
>  Wheat yields in hectolitres per hectare, 1870
>
>  UK...........23.5
>  Sweden.......19.7
>  Russia........7.5
>
>
>  Wheat yields in hectolitres per hectare, 2003
>
>  UK...........77.8
>  Sweden.......55.5
>  Russia.......17.1
>
>
>  Milk yields per cow in litres per year, 1870s
>
>  Tyrol (Austria...............1780
>  Seine watershed (France).....2630
>  Russia, Baltic provinces......587
>  Central Russia................364
>
>
>  Milk yields per cow in litres per year, 2003
>
>  France........6045
>  U.K...........6844
>  Estonia.......5074
>  Russia........2733
>
>
>  Low farming productivity in Russia in Tsarist times was due to factors
>  such as climate including cyclical droughts, medieval technology, the
>  organization of farming on the communes including strip cropping, the
>  difficulty of innovation on the commune, illiteracy and ignorance, and
>  poverty making investment in equipment difficult.
>
>  Nevertheless Russian peasants of those times seem to have often been
>  better fed than those of western Europe.
>
>  Collectivization seems to have been a social as well as an economic
>  disaster, leaving a legacy of apathy and rampant alcoholism.
>
>  As of eight or ten years ago, apparently much small farming was
>  conducted in a peculiar symbiosis with
>  unprofitable "collective" farms, so one should be cautious about
>  drawing conclusions from the statistics of small farms.
>
>  I have the impression that the dacha horticulture/farming phenomenon is
>  to a large extent an urban based middle class affair.
>
>  Ioffe, Nefedova and Zaslavsky quote Vladimir Kagansky in a Russian
>  magazine article of 2003: "In Bashkiriya [Bashkortostan, a Muslim Tatar
>  area east of the Volga near Kazan], the traditional countryside is
>  alive, a true village is still around....In rural Bashkiriya, they work
>  a great deal, build a lot, and drink rarely - this alone makes the rural
>  Bashkirian hinterland amazing beyond belief."
>
>  They go on to comment "Large families, widespread mutual assistance and
>  coordination between rural households, and incomparably less heavy
>  drinking (or no drinking at all) distinguish rural communities in Muslim
>  republics."
>
>  Douglas Woodard
>  St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 16 May 2013 21:53:33 -0400, Lawrence London
>  <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  <snip>
>
> > Russia has some of the best farmland in the world.
> > Russia HAD some of the best farmers in the world and they knew how to
> > work
> > that prime farmland. Soviet Stalinism changed the face of traditional
> > Russian farming.
> > They converted all farming operations to collective farms generating
> > food
> > to ship to the party elite well away from where that food was grown,
> > leaving farmers, their families and relatives,
> > communities and villlages living and working in a state of near
> > poverty or
> > thereabouts, otherwise not fairly compensated for their labors. The
> > Russian
> > farmers of old, called Kulaks (as far as I know) were the experts
> > carrying
> > forward the best traditions of Russian agriculture. The Kulaks were
> > not
> > happy with the changeover. Their displeasure did not go unnoticed in
> > the
> > ceners of political control so they were either exiled to Siberia or
> > exterminated. Russia was left with no new generation who know how to
> > work
> > those magnificent lands (Black Earth Region stretching from Ukraine
> > to
> > Siberia). That's what you have now so no new national agricultural
> > infrastructure serving the Russian people at large. Just oligarchs
> > and
> > their schemes one of which is to sell or lease some of that Black
> > Earth
> > region.  But you have the Dacha Gardeners and community and village
> > gardens
> > as well most probably with larger farms distributing food throughout
> > their
> > regions. You will like this: I met a Krishna follower in Whole Foods
> > one
> > evening years ago and struck up a conversation asking him about
> > organic
> > agriculture there. He replied that after the Soviets left their
> > traditional
> > farming resumed without missing a beat. Most of their farms were
> > small
> > family units with some medium large with all food sold locally or
> > distributed within the immediate region if they were one of the few
> > larger
> > commercial operations. It was an assumed fact that the food sold at
> > markets
> > was organically grown. If a grower tried to sell food
> > produced using methods involving pesticides, it became known rapidly
> > and
> > that vendor was shut out of the marketplace.
>
> > LL
>
>  http://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm
>
>
> http://www.gks.ru/wps/wcm/connect/rosstat_main/rosstat/en/figures/agriculture/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 124, Issue 18
> *********************************************
>



-- 
Mary Farris

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www.helladelics.com~ traditional Greek music
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